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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» MOT committee meeting
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MOT committee meeting
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

The BCGA Executive met with Philatsea and an independent guest moderator to coordinate a plan to deal with the Ministry Of Transportation issue in conjunction with each other. The BCGA directors have been cautiously optimistic of Phil’s progress in streamlining a process of response from the Minister’s office. We are now optimistic that there could soon be a document produced by the Minister's Office which could indeed be the start to the formulation of a policy for Geocaching in MOT districts and rights of way.

Together we will be insuring that the key pieces of information needing clarification by the MOT will be addressed and that this document will become yet another policy that the BCGA can add to the list of favourable policies governing our sport in regards to government agencies within our Province
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Let me be the first to congratulate the Board and Phil for finding a way to work together to resolve this issue.

Congratulations all of you.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Well I see Kelly has posted the news.

Yes, Kelly contacted me on Monday morning to ask if I would meet with the board.

I couldn't have been happier. I did suggest we have a moderator that could over see things in case there were some hard feelings with all the posts on the forums. I suggested a friend Nevgar (Chris) of mine who go me into caching from the NWT. I thank Chris for this.

Without disclosing anything I have just completed my first task of contacting my contact via email as the board has asked.

I can not thank all those that contacted me and discussed the issue, it helped me formulate the questions that I asked of the Minister.

Once again Thank You to the BCGA Board for coming on board.

Phil
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grafinator



Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Coruscant

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Having a geocaching policy approved by the MOT would be nice so we will know exactly what it is we can and cannot do with regards to hiding caches near highways, etc.

_________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing. - Darth Vader
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I would like to personally thank the board for reconsidering their position on this matter and working with Phil. Now, we have two terrific advocates for geocaching presenting a united front to the MOT.

This is truely terrific news for the geocaching in BC
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Update:

The MOT committee has received an invitation to take part in a conference call between the Ministry of Transportation's Manager, Legislation & Road/Rail Policy and the Ministry of Environment's Manager, Marketing and Partnerships for Parks and Protected Areas to formulate a policy for at the very least the MOT however one that I'm told might become a universal policy for all of the Ministries within the Province of BC.

We will update you once that meeting has happened.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

It was a bit of a weird afternoon.
I had just emailed Kelly at 3:00 PM to say I am headed south for two weeks and heard nothing from the MOT. Minutes don't go by and emails start arriving in bunches from the different parties. Non of them are people I know or the person I was told that was handling this.

Quick message to Kelly saying call me ASAP. Kelly calls I say can you explain any of this and he says I was hoping you could explain it.
Email off to my contact who calls me within 2 minutes of email sent. He says yes the Ministers Office will be in on the call and BC Parks. They are now looking at a common policy for the Province for all concerned.

The conference call will take place middle to late next week while I am in Las Vegas. They will call me on the day selected and we will go from there.

WE are making progress and I can say it was great dealing with Kelly today.

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I would like to say that the conference call did take place today with Kelly and myself and 2 MOT and 1 BC Parks representatives.

In short a broad policy is going to be made for both areas with common goals.

There will be an easy way for acceptable cache placements and for you to obtain that information.

The main goal is safety of the cacher and maintaining that.

In coming week/s we will see a pre-policy paper that we will comment on and return.

We asked for a more black and white policy rather than grey.

I think all and all both Kelly and I are happy with how it went.

I will let Kelly expand on it if he wishes.

Phil
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thank you for the update, it sounds like all parties are making progress to a resolution. I do have one process type question...Will the committee be presenting the "pre policy" paper to the entire BCGA membership for comments from the membership prior toformulating a response?
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 291

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Fonty Family wrote:
Thank you for the update, it sounds like all parties are making progress to a resolution. I do have one process type question...Will the committee be presenting the "pre policy" paper to the entire BCGA membership for comments from the membership prior toformulating a response?

Did the previous board do that with respect to the BC Parks policy or the Metro Vancouver Parks policy? I don't recall. However, it is probably unnecessary to do so as the board acts on behalf of the membership.

You can also see that this matter is a little more far reaching than we first thought and the BCGA's approach that involved other Provincial bodies bodes well given our favourable relationship with them from previous geocaching endeavours and programs.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Fonty Family wrote:
Thank you for the update, it sounds like all parties are making progress to a resolution. I do have one process type question...Will the committee be presenting the "pre policy" paper to the entire BCGA membership for comments from the membership prior to formulating a response?

While I would agree it should go to the whole membership for review this will only bog down the process and add months to the process.

As I understood it BC Parks and the MOT would rather deal with Kelly and myself to not draw this out.

You have trusted what I have done so far and I hope you will continue to trust me. I have read and listened to all the email and calls and taken that into consideration.

I can say this and that is the Groundspeak policy is going to try and be followed where it can.

From what we talked about today there are no surprises if that helps.

Phil
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I agree with Phil there certainly were no surprises. It sounded to me today that this whole Geocaching thing was not really well known throughout the MOT as it is in say the various parks departments. So it was more of a whoa is this Geocaching safe and do we need to take any action type of a reaction by the MOT which is understandable. The one thing we need to remember is that the MOT doesn't have any need for Geocaching like say a parks department. What I mean is that a parks department uses Geocaching to draw people into the parks and obviously can see the positive side to caching for just that purpose. The MOT has no need to draw anybody in to the areas they are responsible for so naturally there only concern was in regards to public safety.

I'm just glad we have great parks departments partnerships that were able to be used to ease the minds of the MOT in regards to just how we deal with Geocaching and the processes we already have in place to insure our members safety. I'm pretty confident the MOT policy will for the most part mirror the BC Parks policy . There just may be a few more additional points of clarification set when it comes to roadway rights of way, structures, or government buildings that are under MOT management that usually are not a factor in a BC Park.

There was also mention of a website that will be provided for cachers to use to gain quick approvals for any questionable caches that may be flagged by our reviewers.
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thank you phil and kelly for your further clarification of the direction that the policy is heading. I appreciate the positive and productive responses to my initial query.

I would again like to extend my appreciation for the hard work that has been done on this issue
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 522
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:
While I would agree it should go to the whole membership for review this will only bog down the process and add months to the process.

Absolutely - this is a negotiation, not a democratic process. Cachers may not be happy with all the guidelines but we need to trust that Phil and Kelly will be able to reach the best possible solution with the MOT.


Quote::
I can say this and that is the Groundspeak policy is going to try and be followed where it can.

Actually, what is happening is that Groundspeak Policy is being formed here. Where there is an agreement worked out, Groundspeak must follow it (within reason that is).

Great work everyone!
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Quote::
I can say this and that is the Groundspeak policy is going to try and be followed where it can.

Maybe I should clarify this.

MOT and BC Parks are trying to use the current Groundspeak rules as much as they can and then add exceptions to that.

The one thing they will enforce is GC numbers on all caches including micros. This is in the Groundspeak rules but as we all know do we seldom find the GC number in the caches now. If a cache is found without a GC number by BC Parks or the MOT it will considered trash and removed.

They want to have the GC number on it so if there is a problem (geotrail, safety) they can contact the owner and have it moved.

I don't see this as a problem and I am sure most don't

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Wanted to give you an update on this.

This evening I received an email from MOT and they are hoping to have something for me early in January.

Phil
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MaliBooBoo



Joined: Jan 06, 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Kamloops

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thanks for the update, Phil! We appreciate it!
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bushdude



Joined: Apr 27, 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Gold River

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:
Wanted to give you an update on this.

This evening I received an email from MOT and they are hoping to have something for me early in January.

Phil

It's now the end of January - any updates to report on? Just curious. Thanks.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

There is nothing to report.

I talked just before Christmas and things may have shifted slightly because my contact person was dealing with a new bridge that opened in Kelowna where the wall collapsed at Christmas.

The other reason is they want to have the web page up along with the rules so we can look at the whole package.

I have not worried at this point as most of the Province is still in the middle of winter and few caches are likely to no be placed at this time.

I will let you know as soon as I know.

Phil
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vanislelady



Joined: Jan 20, 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Campbell River

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thanks for the update Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I received an email late last night from my Contact in MOT and he said they will be looking at the latest draft this week and getting back to me.

Hope this helps,

Phil
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The-A-Team



Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

It's good to hear that the matter is moving along. I look forward to seeing what the end result looks like. We'll be hiding a lot of caches for the Island Spirit Mega Event this summer, so it would be good to know what the MOT's position is before we go making grand plans!
Thanks for all your work, Phil!
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I received an email yesterday from my MLA to see how things were going with this. I explained what has happened to date and sent it off.

I had sent an email on Thursday to my contact asking for an update. I have heard nothing so I have nothing to really report.

I am still on top of this and hopefully we will have a answer soon.

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I had a lunch meeting yesterday with my contact at MOT in Kamloops and got an update as to what is happening.

In some ways this has taken on a life of it's own I was told. There are many in Government that want to see this policy as soon as possible. My contact goes to meetings and is asked my many about Geocaching. He was talking to a Minister of another department a few weeks back who asked him more about Geocaching.

The Government is very interested in seeing this succeed.

It is up to the new Executive to get the BCGA house in order if they want to continue to deal with the Government.

Now for the short term.

The MOT will issue a letter hopefully this week to Groundspeak rescinding the prior letter from the complainant at MOT. For now the rule will be the current Groundspeak and those rules will be in effect till a new policy is in place.

Talk also included that caches on Guard Rails be banned. Guard Rails are there for one reason and that is safety and to keep car on the road. They tend to be in places to stop vehicles from leaving the road.
So a cache in that location just isn't safe. I have not run into one person that has said otherwise.
The problem is how is this policed. The reviewer has no idea that it is on a guard rail so it gets approved. The next problem is a fellow cacher comes along and signs the log knowing it shouldn't be there but says nothing because they don't want to be a "snitch". This isn't a matter of being a snitch but making the game better and safer.
At lunch we discussed the Idaho cacher that went over the guard rail was in his 70's. We discussed can you imagine if the cacher was a child say 12 or younger. Where would this have gone. What would we be discussing today. Remember this is a game where we encourage children to take part by trading items.
So being a snitch isn't that, it is being responsible to report bad caches and get them within the game. There are many new cachers placing caches not fully aware of what makes a good or a bad cache. It is up to others to help them out and educate them. This is why BCGA has to go beyond caching 101 courses.
It was suggested that maybe BCGA make videos and post them on the BCGA site that go beyond caching 101. BC is very unique to other places in many ways and having a generic video for an area isn't always good.
This isn't the same game it was even 3 years ago.

BC Parks is looking at removing the 3 year time limit on caches. The reason is they have realized in many cases parks get closed for the winter and no caching happens. The caches are only being used for no more then 6 months a year do to closure and weather.
Basically Parks will look at all year round parks and watch the caches in those parks.

I hope this helps and will allow us to start placing caches in the disputed area's soon.

I will follow this to the end and keep you updated.

Phil
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 522
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thank you Phil for continuing to work on this most important project and for keeping the website users up to speed on your progress. I look forward to getting up to speed with what you and Kelly worked on together on behalf of the BCGA and all cachers in BC.
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loungelions



Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thanks for the work, Phil-at-sea.

If you don't want to do guard rail caches, then don't ever go to the Oregon coast. I couldn't believe the amount of guard rail caches there...we had to bypass a ton of them a couple of years ago just because it didn't look like there was any safe place to stop and they just got boring to do after a while.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

loungelions wrote:
Thanks for the work, Phil-at-sea.

If you don't want to do guard rail caches, then don't ever go to the Oregon coast. I couldn't believe the amount of guard rail caches there...we had to bypass a ton of them a couple of years ago just because it didn't look like there was any safe place to stop and they just got boring to do after a while.

Thank you

Exactly why they should be done away with.

I know it is hard for the Reviewer to know if the cache is on a guard rail but guard rails are there for a reason.

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

I have not posted on this in some time.

The last I time I posted was after my meeting of March 31 2012.

I have been away and returned a couple of weeks back and did a follow-up yesterday on this matter.

I sent an email to both BC Parks and BC Highways.

I received a reply from both this morning.

I had asked the question on Gold Country caches in BC Parks and the change of the 3 year policy we had discussed back in our conference call in November 2011.
BC Parks had discussed "refreshing" caches in BC parks for things like geotrails etc. The suggestion had been made by Parks that they could be moved by 20 - 30m and would satisfy things. I explained that with Gold Country that would be difficult as there was a published book of a 160+ pages. It had been discussed that Gold Country caches in Parks are not sought for 6+ months of the year as a result of winter conditions and thus don't get the number of visitors some other caches would.

Since Gold Country caches are coming due next month and nothing heard from Parks I sent off the email as I said.

This morning BC Parks sent his reply.

Quote::
we are fine with caches being refreshed after 3 years if it is for a new or renewed geocaching initiative.

Now onto BC Highways.

In the meeting of March 31 2012 I had it was discussed that a letter would be sent to Groundspeak rescinding the prior complaint letter to Groundspeak and go back to the original Groundspeak rules.
That was to be sent while I was away.

This is the reply I received this morning.

Quote::
Thanks for the reminder on my note to Ground Speak. I'll have a note for them later this week. Sorry for the delay.

I hope this helps with what is still going on and no I have not given up on this.

Phil
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 522
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Thanks Phil for keeping everyone up to date on this. We appreciate your efforts on behalf of the BCGA.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Hi All,


I have just recieved an email from Highways withdrawing the previous letter banning caches along BC highways.

The letter says that Groundspeak can go back to the prevoius approval process prior to the letter being issued last summer.

One of the current situations being looked at is the non placement of caches on or near guard rails for obvious safety reasons. I might suggest that while GS might allow this at this time it might save you from moving or having to archive your cache when the policy comes down in BC.

This is intended for the interm till a final policy is drawn up for Parks and Highways.

Hope this helps,

Phil
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Supercab



Joined: Jul 02, 2011
Posts: 1
Location: Chilliwack, BC

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: MOT committee meeting Reply with quote

Wow! Thank you Phil and BCGA. Well done.
Happy trails.

_________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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