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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Roadside Cache Ban
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Roadside Cache Ban
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:
Do we know what district office?

We do but have been asked to withhold that information and to have no contact with that office or anyone from the MOT at this time.

The BCGA has done all that we can with emails and direct phone calls to try and offer our assistance to Groundspeak. At this point we are going to wait until we are needed.

We do have many people in various government and non government organizations we can contact for support. Some of these people even know of the situation already through there own grapevines and most have suggested to me that the BCGA should let the two main parties negotiate a settlement and just be there when needed.

Thank you everyone for the continued interest and support on this. Let's hope for an eventual satisfactory closure to this matter.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I am rather concerned that the hold of new caches placed along Highways has taken to include Municipal roads and City roads. The Province has no jurisdiction on these roads. So why are these roads caught up in all this?

Phil
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MaliBooBoo



Joined: Jan 06, 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Kamloops

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:
I am rather concerned that the hold of new caches placed along Highways has taken to include Municipal roads and City roads. The Province has no jurisdiction on these roads. So why are these roads caught up in all this?

Phil

I am sure if the cache hider can display/prove to the reviewer that their hide is not under MOTI jurisdiction then it would get published. Like you say, many roads are the jurisdiction of cities and towns and also many roads are Forest Service Roads. Caches adjacent to any of these shouldn't be a concern, I would imagine.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

MaliBooBoo wrote:
Philatsea wrote:
I am rather concerned that the hold of new caches placed along Highways has taken to include Municipal roads and City roads. The Province has no jurisdiction on these roads. So why are these roads caught up in all this?

Phil

I am sure if the cache hider can display/prove to the reviewer that their hide is not under MOTI jurisdiction then it would get published. Like you say, many roads are the jurisdiction of cities and towns and also many roads are Forest Service Roads. Caches adjacent to any of these shouldn't be a concern, I would imagine.

It appears the reviewer has taken the stand that ALL roads in BC need permission with this statement:
Quote::
We have been working through some recent issues province-wide with the BC Ministry of Transportation. At this time, we have been instructed not to publish any new geocaches along roads in BC, or within potential right of way areas along these roads, without explicit permission from the Ministry or other jurisdiction who controls and maintains that particular road. If you have obtained permission, please post the name, job title, and contact information for the individual who granted permission. If not, please obtain permission. Your caches will remain on hold until verifiable permission has been provided.

It appears that permission is now required no matter who's road it is. It is totally unacceptable that all roads are caught up in this when the MOT has NO jurisdiction on all roads.

Phil
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

My series was temporarily blocked. I provided evidence that the road would fall under forestry/resources instead of MOT and it was approved.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Well it appears that I have received a reply saying I have to get permission from the city/town in order for these caches to be placed.
Based on this I would say now ALL roads in BC are now under this.

I am disappointed that this directive has now been taken the way it has.

It would be great if the BCGA would get this clarified at the earliest possible time.

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Over the last few weeks there have been many things posted on this topic.

I have been trying to help get some caches placed for Tourism Pemberton in the Village of Pemberton along a road.
One of the things that I have noticed each reviewer has their own interpretation of what the MOT has asked for.
I have been told by the Wizard of Ooze (Wiz) that the roads in the Village of Pemberton fall under this directive.
I was pointed in an email by the Wiz to a link and this statement:
"Due to a recent complaint from the British Columbia Ministry of Transportation (MOT), reviewers have been asked by Groundspeak not to publish any new geocache submissions along any highway or road that may be considered on or too close to the right of way property owned by the Ministry of Transportation(MOT)."

I pointed out that since the Village of Pemberton Roads are not owned by MOT with the exception of Highway 99 (more on this shortly) they do not require a letter. It is also the Village of Pemberton that is placing the caches so technically they are giving themselves permission to place the caches anyways.
The Wiz still insists that all roads are part of the MOT with this statement:
"Every highway and side road in the province, not in a municipality, is in essence controlled by the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure. If the various Maintenance contractors grade the road, clear snow, or paint a line on a road - the MOT makes the rules."
Let’s explain one thing that all road crews are Private Contractors, not employees of the MOT. These contractors can be hired by Cities, Municipalities or Districts, etc. to clear snow, paint lines build bridges etc. This doesn’t make the roads they build, paint or clear part of the MOT. In fact one of the Line Crews is from a company from Alberta; does this make the roads they paint part of the Alberta MOT? I think not.

There is this statement that LordEd posted on August 18 2011 that he says came in an email from Reviewer Scootch:
You have the option of moving all caches no less than 50 metres away from xxxxxx Road.

So this again represents a different interoperation of the directive from Groundspeak.

This alone scares me the most. Why you ask. The 50 meters Scootch suggest is about 164 feet. If we take the City of Vancouver and look at the placement of caches this would mean there would be almost no caches. In fact there would be no caches in most built up areas in BC. Most lots in Vancouver are less than 100 feet. Most houses in Vancouver have back allies.
This combined with the Wiz saying that it includes all roads in BC requiring permission really sets caching up for a BIG fall.
You see I have dealt with Governments both on the Provincial and Federal level both in the areas of Transport for Highways and Aircraft.

I know that the question will come up in a meeting between Geocaching and the MOT based on my prior contacts. “What have you been using since our Directive to you as an interim measure to solve the problem”
The answer will be we have been using 50 meters and you know what happens then. Since you have been using that lets make it that.
Now could you please have all your existing caches come into compliance with this rule.
Imagine the shock then? It is hard to get it changed once this happens.
Further if the MOT set the Policy for placing caches and other jurisdictions want to put in place a similar policy imagine if the 50 meter policy is adopted throughout the Province.
This would similar to BC Parks Policy and Metro Parks.
There is a way to find out what a highway is and what a highway isn’t.
MOT puts out a PDF File for what is called [url=http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/Publications/eng_publications/geomet/lki/LKI_BC_201107.pdf ]Landmark Kilometre Inventory[/url] (LKI). As stated on the BC MOT Government site. It says on the MOT site:
“The LKI is one of the Ministry of Transportation's systems for identifying locations on the Provincial Highway network. It has been in use since before 1978.”
The LKI includes things like pull offs, rest areas, picnic areas and some Provincial Parks to name a few.
So in essence this is the bible of what and where a highway is or in simple terms what they are in charge of.

I have provided this link and another link to the Wiz stating this is the official site for the BC MOT.

I did this because the Wiz say she didn’t have any information to work with, so I provided it.

I looked up the road in the LKI for Pemberton where the caches are to be placed and it is not in the LKI.
With this information that sent to the Wiz one would assume that the rules that have been used to date would apply. I have stated above what the Wiz thinks what roads is part of the MOT.

So given this a series of caches is placed along Highway 101 on the Sunshine coast. With this comes one cache that is a mere 3 - 5 meters from a BC Designated Highway looking at the scale on the map. Hold it here Wiz’s own web page defines this as:
“This means no caches by a highway, road, lane, pullout, intersection, traffic circle, median, highway rest stop.”

If 3 - 5 meters isn’t by a highway, then I am not sure what is. So how did get approved by the person who says this isn’t permitted?
When I questioned this I am sent this:
“Thank you for your email. I can assure you that each cache that I review is looked at carefully and thoroughly before it is published to ensure that it is in compliance with the guide lines, including the cache that you reference in your email”

Then there is Scootch’s interpretation that says 50 meters from a road.

I ask the question. How does this meet the guidelines set down by the Wiz, Scootch and Groundspeak?

So we have both BC reviewers saying different things.

There has been no direction from the BCGA or Groundspeak to clear things up. This is causing confusion to say the least.
I feel that since no guidance is coming I met with one of the Assistants of my MLA on this matter this morning to try and get some clarification on this. I am told they should be able to help

It is important that this matter be cleared up sooner than later or we could see a big change in geocaching as we know it today in BC.
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

How close to the road are you? Are we talking power-trail every power-pole type caches, "welcome to ______ " sign type caches, attached to wildlife or farmer's fences, attached to monuments/tourist boards that happen to be close/on roads/pullouts, parks/private lots, or other?

Can you give a sample of what you're trying to place that is currently considered unacceptable?

----

On my cache placements: My "plan A" to defend my caches was successful. Plan "B" was to provide evidence that caches would fall under the directive of "not close to the road" including photos, on-site measurements, and other points. For example, cache x is up a tree, cache y is on the opposite side of a walking trail, cache z is on what appears to be an overgrown unmaintaned side road, etc. I don't know if plan B would have been successful, but I'd make an attempt at it

Plan "C" being to move the caches out of range, of course.

On the "contractor" argument. The choice of contractor, regardless of where they come from, is the choice of the MOT in BC. A contractor in Alberta is an agent of the person who hired them, not of the officials where the come from.

On the "every road in Vancouver" and "50m" issue: if a cache is placed in a park or parking lot, I would argue that a photo of the cache being on a developed area would be clear evidence that it is not subject to a roadside cache ban (except for pullouts which are/may be maintained by MOT).

50m might be a guideline provided to question a cache location, but other evidence that it would reasonably be considered not close to a road would likely be accepted (untested theory).

On the "caches on hwy 101" point: The guidelines indicate precedence is not set by cache placements. Depending on the results of the roadside issue, mass caches could be forced-archived, or simply be left as-is until owner archived.

On "reviewer consistency". Watch a few different hockey games and different refs call different things. There probably is discussion on this issue going on. I was told my photos were looked at by a few reviewers before final approval.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with some roadside caches in questionable locations disappearing. If my series because unacceptable, I'd archive without issue and remove up the geo-trash (and probably recycle some into different hides).
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:
How close to the road are you? Are we talking power-trail every power-pole type caches, "welcome to ______ " sign type caches, attached to wildlife or farmer's fences, attached to monuments/tourist boards that happen to be close/on roads/pullouts, parks/private lots, or other?

Can you give a sample of what you're trying to place that is currently considered unacceptable?


There are two being placed as I understand it at the entrance to two different business and one under a bridge. The bridge has a large parking lot next to it and used by locals.

In the case of Pemberton they are trying to showcase things unique to Pemberton. Pemberton is unique to growing Potatoes in the fact they are the only location in the world that grows disease free potatoes because of the protection of the coast mountains.

There is the distillery as well which makes one of the best Potato Vodka's in the world.

I have not been up there for the placement of these caches but plan to go up once released. When I was last there I made suggestions for placements for unique locations to showcase what Pemberton has to offer. I do believe the new locations are a result of some of my suggestions.

I also understand there is another 20+ caches soon to be placed on trails around Pemberton.

Phil
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Quote::
There are two being placed as I understand it at the entrance to two different business and one under a bridge. The bridge has a large parking lot next to it and used by locals.
Foot bridge or car bridge? I'd really recommend against a cache on a road bridge due to appearance of somebody placing a 'container' under a bridge. Even the footbridge in Kelowna got a bomb scare.

For ones at entrances of businesses, are we talking about placement on the shoulder near the business, or on something they built/landscaped?
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:
Quote::
There are two being placed as I understand it at the entrance to two different business and one under a bridge. The bridge has a large parking lot next to it and used by locals.
Foot bridge or car bridge? I'd really recommend against a cache on a road bridge due to appearance of somebody placing a 'container' under a bridge. Even the footbridge in Kelowna got a bomb scare.

For ones at entrances of businesses, are we talking about placement on the shoulder near the business, or on something they built/landscaped?

It is a car bridge. The RCMP have been advised of the caches as far as I know as there is a cache across the street from the Detachment there in the park.

Business's have been talked to about the placement of the caches and to why they are there.
The Pemberton Airport is rather unique in which the placement of the cache is in parachute packing house. It is open to the public 24/7 and all the people know it is there. In fact they will move the cache within the building from time to time to "play" with the cachers.

Pemberton has done a great job informing the community and even did a 10 minute segment on Shaw back in July.

Phil
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:

The Pemberton Airport is rather unique in which the placement of the cache is in parachute packing house. It is open to the public 24/7 and all the people know it is there. In fact they will move the cache within the building from time to time to "play" with the cachers.

The reason I asked about the business ones' locations is that if its on a business developed object (signage) or clearly on their property, a photo might be enough to pass the restriction.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:


The reason I asked about the business ones' locations is that if its on a business developed object (signage) or clearly on their property, a photo might be enough to pass the restriction.

We had this discussion with the Golf Course cache. The Sign is on Pemberton Right away. The reviewer wanted a letter from the Golf Course but they said it wasn't up to them as the property was Pemberton's.
WE did sort it out.

Phil
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

It looks like others are getting impatient with the lack of progess or updates...

www.facebook.com/#!/gr...598410677/

Phil - I agree with you the 50 metre current guideline, combined with requiring explicit permission on ALL "roadside" caches may create some unintended outcomes. My concern is that this guideline will be applied like the railroad guideline in the US, where if you are within the 46m of the railroad, the cache will not be approved irrespective of whether/not the cache placement is on public/private or park land. But when this issue was brought forward in the forum, the response was, we do not want to be seen as "picking nits" Rolling Eyes ...Maybe now, others will consider that this is a fairly large "nit" that could effectively end urban geocaching...I will get off my soapbox now Soapbox

As for the Pemberton caches, I am confused why they still are not being accepted. Since the City is setting them up, it should not be a concern with respect to municipal roads. They can provide explicit permission themselves. Maybe, there was other issues with the cache placement. But then again I am tired right now and it was a long forum post, so I am sure I misread something. Smack

I believe GS is still being proactive on the issue, and hopefully, we will hear something new shortly. (but I am sure we will be seeing more people taking matters in their own hands as time drags on and frustration levels increase)
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The-A-Team



Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I'm concerned that it's now been a month and a half, and we've basically gotten no news on this. Can BCGA at least request a progress report from GS, and make sure they're actively working on this issue affecting an entire province? For all we know, GS could be sitting around twiddling their thumbs (like they seem to be in repsonse to all the Feedback topics :roll:). I know GS can't appear too pushy, but something needs to happen, or like Fonty said, we'll have cachers taking the matter into their own hands and possibly making things worse. I keep coming up with ideas for hides, but until this gets sorted out, none of them would fly under the current restriction.

Andrew
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

BCGA is doing as much as we can. When we find out something new from GS, we will share the information.

Trust us, we don't like this either.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I had an email from Groundspeak tonight and they have suggested that there will be an answer of some type next week.

I also heard from my MLA today and they were told they will have an answer from the Minister later this week.

So something is coming it appears.

Phil
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

This case has taken a twist I am sure most didn't see coming.

From what I have learned this week Groundspeak is playing their cards very close to their chest.

The BCGA is basically out of the negotiations, in fact it might be fair to say they were never in the negotiations, they were just advised of the problem.

Here is the kicker to all this, my MLA sent me a letter yesterday and the Minister of Transport (MOT) says they never sent a letter to Groundspeak. They have no record of sending a letter to Groundspeak or geocaching.com.

The Minister is now asking me for more information as they now want to know who is talking on behalf of the Minister. They want to know if a local MLA from the area in question sent a letter or an area Manager sent a letter, in either case they DO NOT represent the Minister and can not make public policy.

I understand that the BCGA does not have a copy of the original complaint as they only got a directive from Groundspeak.
I further understand that Groundspeak's policy is the information (complaint) is under the Privacy Act and thus will not be released.

I will be very interested next week to find out what Groundspeak has to say on this matter.

Phil
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Did you or the Minister forward a copy of the letter to groundspeak and/or their representatives?

Can you post the letter you got, so that all BCGA members can see?
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Fonty Family wrote:
Did you or the Minister forward a copy of the letter to groundspeak and/or their representatives?

Can you post the letter you got, so that all BCGA members can see?

I am not sure I understand your first question fully, but I will say this.
I do not have a copy of the letter that was sent to groundspeak nor did I. I was using the information from here and that was posted on the Wizard of Oozes' web page. The Minister's Office is saying they can not find any record of a letter being sent.

I am not sure that posting the whole email is wise, I don't want to loose my contact at this point as the MLA's Office could take it as Private communications. I am trying to get an answer for all of us as there appears to be no answer from Groundspeak.

Phil
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

You can ask your contact for permission to post your correspondence (or their most recent message) here. Just let him/her know that there is a lot of confusion and interested parties in the dark. I had a BC Parks contact ok with that.

The BCGA Admin says they know the MOT office in question. Maybe get these two parties in contact and they can relay that information with appropriate confidentiality?
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:
You can ask your contact for permission to post your correspondence (or their most recent message) here. Just let him/her know that there is a lot of confusion and interested parties in the dark. I had a BC Parks contact ok with that.

The BCGA Admin says they know the MOT office in question. Maybe get these two parties in contact and they can relay that information with appropriate confidentiality?

I have called my MLA's Office and they would like to see me not post the email. They said they would be happy to get an Official response from the Minister and I could post that.
They would also like to see what Regional Office did respond so they can look into further and also respond to that.

Phil
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LordEd



Joined: Feb 03, 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I guess send the MLA's contact info to teskelly to provide the regional office in question.

If you get and post an official response from the minister, I would argue that it would be reasonable proof for reviewer purposes that there is no 'ban' on cache placements.

If its a regional office that has issue and not province wide, perhaps the ban could be adjusted to only the region in question until it is fully cleared up.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

LordEd wrote:
I guess send the MLA's contact info to teskelly to provide the regional office in question.

If you get and post an official response from the minister, I would argue that it would be reasonable proof for reviewer purposes that there is no 'ban' on cache placements.

If its a regional office that has issue and not province wide, perhaps the ban could be adjusted to only the region in question until it is fully cleared up.

I will email teskelly with this.

I did not ask for an Official response from the Minister at this point. I don't see the point till I get further information so we get the correct answer.
What was provided to me was section 62 which you published on here.

From what was said this morning by my MLA's Office the regional Office doesn't have the authority to to ask Groundspeak for a ban.

I want this matter cleared up so there are no questions, so it is very clear what the policy is.

Phil
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:
Fonty Family wrote:
Did you or the Minister forward a copy of the letter to groundspeak and/or their representatives?

Can you post the letter you got, so that all BCGA members can see?

I am not sure I understand your first question fully, but I will say this.
I do not have a copy of the letter that was sent to groundspeak nor did I. I was using the information from here and that was posted on the Wizard of Oozes' web page. The Minister's Office is saying they can not find any record of a letter being sent.

I am not sure that posting the whole email is wise, I don't want to loose my contact at this point as the MLA's Office could take it as Private communications. I am trying to get an answer for all of us as there appears to be no answer from Groundspeak.

Phil
My first question asked did YOU/MLA assistant forward the response YOU got (ie the email) to the appropriate person at groundspeak?

This will give groundspeak can opportunity to clarify with the minister directly who originated the request to remove caches directly. This would serve two purposes
1) give GS the "correct" person to contact,
2) hopefully put the end to the "cache puratory" (ie caches on hold).

As for my second question, I totally respect that you do not want to release that information. And I am greatful you have been able to get additional information where others have failed. Detective
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

[quote="Fonty Family"]
Philatsea wrote:
Fonty Family wrote:
Did you or the Minister forward a copy of the letter to groundspeak and/or their representatives?

Can you post the letter you got, so that all BCGA members can see?

My first question asked did YOU/MLA assistant forward the response YOU got (ie the email) to the appropriate person at groundspeak?

This will give groundspeak can opportunity to clarify with the minister directly who originated the request to remove caches directly. This would serve two purposes
1) give GS the "correct" person to contact,
2) hopefully put the end to the "cache puratory" (ie caches on hold).

As for my second question, I totally respect that you do not want to release that information. And I am greatful you have been able to get additional information where others have failed. Detective

I have updated my support request at Groundspeak this morning with this information.

I am going to request a Official Response from the Minister through my MLA.

From information I have learned today it appears that a Regional Manager made the request to Groundspeak. The Regional Manager can not set policy for the Minister and thus Groundspeak would be talking to the wrong person here if it was the Manager that made the original complaint.

Everyone I have talked to is assuming ( and I hate this word) that this all resulted from the Cacher from Idaho that went over the railing to his death. No one is saying how this came about.

All I am trying to do is get this whole thing clarified as we have all heard "trust us" we are working on it. I have learned more than anyone is willing to admit they know.

I am not trying to undermine the BCGA here but their backs are up against the wall and from what I understand they have not had much success with groundspeak.

Will let you know when I know,

Phil
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Fonty Family



Joined: Nov 15, 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Kelowna

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Phil,

If you are ever in Kelowna, send me an e-mail, I will buy you a few beer and you can fill me in as to "what you have learned"... Laughing

Cheers...
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cartguy



Joined: May 18, 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Abbotsford

PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Phil

I think you are doing an awsome job for geocaching in BC, Thank You Very Happy Cool
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Just a quick update.

I have not heard back from Groundspeak as of yet other than they are suppose to contact me this week.

I have sent my email to my MLA who in turn is sending a request to the Minister for an answer.

Now we wait and I will update you as I find out.

Phil
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bushdude



Joined: Apr 27, 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Gold River

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Thanks Phil for all your updates.

If what I'm reading is all true, I find it quite scary that a bureaucrat can pose as a "representative" speaking of behalf of the province and end up creating something like this.

I hope at the end of this fiascal that as a minimum the person responsible for starting all this loses their job and their cushy pension.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I am not blaming the District Manager on this one. Having dealt with these Managers in my prior job they have authority to do things.
Where this went wrong is something looking very Official arriving at Groundspeak and them thinking it was law. This is where they need to bring in the local Caching community for input. Also remember that we are talking two different countries here.

Phil
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Update:

The BCGA has just been contacted by Groundspeak and have been reassured they are still actively working on this problem. It is Groundspeaks desire to have the BCGA become involved as the local representative in which the Ministry of Transportation can directly work with in addressing their concerns and to work out an agreeable solution for everyone involved.

I have been asked to take part in a conference call between our two reviewers and the representative from Groundspeak to discuss this situation in further detail. We are hoping to have this happen in the next few day's.

In the mean time If anyone has any questions they would like asked at this meeting please email me with them and I will do my best to have them answered.

Kelly Contant
TESKELLY

president @ bcgeocaching.com
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

I was contacted by Groundspeak this afternoon and had a lengthy discussion with them.

I knew they were going to talk to Kelly and I held off posting till Kelly made his post.

I am not going to name names at this point as I see no need to.

The complaint is not a result of the Idaho cacher over the railing.

As it stands I have forwarded my email from my MLA's Office from the Minister to Groundspeak. This should clarify who can talk on behalf of the MOT.

Further there has been a suggestion by myself that a meeting occur between the complainant and myself and hopefully at least one board member from the BCGA to meet and discuss the problem. WE are hoping to Educate this person and explain Geocaching and what he sees as a problem and listen. A report back to Groundspeak would occur after that.

I am to hear back from Groundspeak in the coming days.

It does sound positive at this point there is dialogue happening and we can remain hopeful.

I would like to say Thank You to all those that have emailed me with support and kind words and their thoughts on this. I will continue to work on this matter till we have a conclusion.

Phil
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Mr Kaswa



Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

TESKELLY wrote:
Update:

The BCGA has just been contacted by Groundspeak and have been reassured they are still actively working on this problem. It is Groundspeaks desire to have the BCGA become involved as the local representative in which the Ministry of Transportation can directly work with in addressing their concerns and to work out an agreeable solution for everyone involved.


If the BCGA is now to work out an agreeable solution for everyone involved, just what has gs been doing for the last several months and why didn't gs contact the BCGA sooner?
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Mr Kaswa



Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Mr Kaswa wrote:
TESKELLY wrote:
Update:

The BCGA has just been contacted by Groundspeak and have been reassured they are still actively working on this problem. It is Groundspeaks desire to have the BCGA become involved as the local representative in which the Ministry of Transportation can directly work with in addressing their concerns and to work out an agreeable solution for everyone involved.


If the BCGA is now to work out an agreeable solution for everyone involved, just what has gs been doing for the last several months and why didn't gs contact the BCGA sooner?

Contact the BCGA to be the local representative and work directly with etc, not merely contact.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

Well I said I would report back on what has happened. I received an email from Groundspeak this afternoon.

I am told that today a call was initiated between the Wizard of Ooze, Scootch and Groundspeak as I understand it. There is no mention of the BCGA taking part in this call.

Groundspeak has taken the original complaint and just left it on the back burner so to speak. The complainant even though a District Manager doesn't have the authority to speak on behalf of the MOT as I found out through my MLA and her contacting the Honourable Blair Lekstrom Minister of Transport. It is only the Minister that can make policy. The Minister said it is Section 62 of the Act that applies to caches along Highways in BC.

I have always been a advocate in my prior jobs that meeting and educating people when problems such as these arise is important to bring them into the fold. Just leaving it on the back burner has never been wise, the burner will heat up and then boil over even harder than it did before.

The email says from groundspeak "the Wizard of Ooze and Scootch have the situation in good hands and under control. They will take this from here. They will communicate what needs to be communicated to the geocaching community, and so I ( Groundspeak Lacky) would appreciate it personally if you gave them the floor."

I still have my request into the Minister requesting what a highway is etc. and await the Ministers direct reply. Once this reply is received I will post it and this may change the guidelines for placing/approving caches once again as it will direct policy, something that can not be ignored.

I have learned one thing in all this is that if I had not contacted my MLA in this matter and told only the Minister can make policy it would likely be many more weeks before we had an answer.

I am left wondering in all this that in today's email from Groundspeak there is no mention in the BCGA taking part in this call that Kelly says he was asked to take part in in his post yesterday. I truly hope that this isn't a case of the BCGA being locked out of something that affects caching in BC.

In all this we now have to await what the decision is as it will be communicated from the reviewers.

I would also like to point out that I have made a couple of requests of Kelly to contact me and they have gone unanswered.

Time will tell if this was a good decision for caching in BC.

Phil
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Tugman_and_Wifey



Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

What a sad state of affairs.
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scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

It's good to see a take charge person. That is exactly what the geocaching community needs from time to time.

But I have to ask. Was everyone taking charge of the situation asked by Groundspeak to get involved or was there some unilateral decision to take the reins? I only ask because its been my experience that associations tend to deal with problems in a certain way and it may have been a bit of a shock to see someone from the "outside" taking charge of the matter -- possibly going in a different direction than decided by the head office.

Working on the BCGA board of directors taught me all about micro management from concerned parties. It's one thing to offer the association help. It's another to lay out a separate game plan and act on it. Doing so can do more harm than good.

It's good to see that groundspeak is listening to concerns and gathering feedback from interested parties. But it looks like they would prefer to deal with the situation using their core staff. That makes sense to me. After all, that is the only way the left hand can see what the right is doing and only geocaching.com staff can speak on behalf of the company. They're the ones publishing our caches.

As a person that worked with BC Parks, Metro Vancouver Parks and other institutions to open geocaching to new areas, having the rug ripped from a major portion of the province is of deep concern. I'm frustrated with everyone else. But these things take time. I don't think it is too much to ask everyone to lay off highway caches for a period of time while geocaching.com deals with the issue. It looks like they invited the BCGA into the discussion. Hopefully everything will work out for the best. We'll just have to be patient. Chill and let the people working on it do their job.
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

The BCGA is still involved no need to worry there. I got an email from Jenn as well today. I wasn't apart of today's conference call but I have one scheduled for tomorrow at noon. I was going to wait till that happened before posting anything on the forums. However I read the latest's posts and decided to reassure everyone again that this is finally a work in progress and the wheels are a turning.

I do wish to thank Phil as he has done some awesome work on this and I commend him for taking the time to contact his MLA in contacting the ministers office for their position on this. I hope that clears things up as well.

I am going away for a long weekend so I hope to update you all on the call tomorrow before I leave but if not then Monday night it will be.

TESKELLY
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: Roadside Cache Ban Reply with quote

The last 2 posts to this topic have been deleted as they are off topic. Groundspeak is working on the issue, and is keeping BCGA up to date with any progress. Phil is operating as an individual cacher, not as a representative of the BCGA. As frustrating as it is, the BCGA must deal through proper channels, that being through Groundspeak as it is their ultimate determination what will or will not be allowed for cache placements in BC.
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