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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Caches in Provincial and Local Parks
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Caches in Provincial and Local Parks
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Do we need a BCGA ? Reply with quote

A couple of years ago I recall media coverage of the then Minister of the Environment Barry Penner posing with Chris (Mr Landsharkz) holding a cache that was being placed or had been placed as part of a BCGA – BC Parks initiative at the time. As I recall the cache container was a lock n lock of reasonable size containing a nice amount of swag. Even though I have never been a proponent of the BCGA soliciting local cachers to place caches in any parks as part of a joint initiative, I did think at the time “Oh well at least it is a decent size and has some swag”.

Today I try to envision the “new” Minister responsible for our BC Parks, with a handful of this type of cache container with a smile on his face proudly proclaiming a partnership with the BCGA. The BCGA fought hard to create an atmosphere of trust and good will with BC Parks among others and yet this is what is being placed along “power trails” and used as the seemingly preferred cache container of the day.

This is junk. To place hundreds of these containers along paths in our local parks and along our historic trails will undoubtedly be the cause of complaints about Geocaching in general and complaints about the placement of these containers being made to Park managers and Parks Boards.

BCGA partnered this past year and will do so again in the upcoming year with Metro Vancouver Parks in 101 events, this initiative I am sure encouraged many new cachers to join in the game. These parks and parklands are meant for the use of everyone, no exceptions, with no fees to join or fees to use the parks. Recently many, Member Only caches have been placed in these same parks. If the parks staff whose job it was to formulate their policies had been made aware that in order to seek these PM caches, that everyone would have to pay a fee to an American based for profit listing service. Would they not have insisted caches placed within their parks be freely accessible to all who use the parks. I think they would and should have done just that.

Here then is an example. Is this what we want to encourage and see in our beautiful Parks and Recreation areas?

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MaliBooBoo



Joined: Jan 06, 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Kamloops

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Do we need a BCGA ? Reply with quote

Uh oh, I've got a couple caches like that. When's the cache police going to come calling?
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Teddy2k



Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 358
Location: Rosedale, BC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

IRLPGUY wrote:
This is junk.

It may be junk to you, but it's just another cache container for myself and most others. There are no requirements that a cache must be a lock & lock container of reasonable size, nor are there requirements that every cache must contain swag... in fact, pre-form containers are more rugged and water tight than any lock & lock that I've ever seen and they're easier to hide too.

I respect the fact that you prefer one type of container over another, however that doesn't mean you should call my preferred container "junk". That would be like me calling Dodge trucks "junk" because I prefer Chevy trucks.

Just my Two Cents
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vanislelady



Joined: Jan 20, 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Campbell River

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

We all have our personal "preferences" as to what should be hidden where. Micros in "any" wooded area have always been a bone of contention and there are some that feel that if the space allows it then there should be a large container hidden there.
However, if the hide in a wooded area (including parks) is hidden in a safe, environmental fashion with an appropriate hint so that it can be found without damaging the area then I see no problem.
It is when a micro is hidden in such a way that the whole area has to be trashed to find it then there is a problem. And is that not a problem with not only the hider but the finder as well?
This is where we as cachers have to step back and say "it is NOT" about the numbers.
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Teddy2k



Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 358
Location: Rosedale, BC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

For the record, pre-form containers are appox. 8 times the size of a standard bison tube and such, are usually marked as "small" containers... not "micro" containers.
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Some of my most "favourited" caches or the ones that have garnered the most positive comments have been micros.

I strongly disagree that they are junk.

Furthermore, some of my most favourite caches have too been micros. As far as I am concerned, the walk, environment, company, exercise etc. contribute to the caching experience far more than the size of the container.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Teddy2k wrote:
IRLPGUY wrote:
This is junk.

It may be junk to you, but it's just another cache container for myself and most others. There are no requirements that a cache must be a lock & lock container of reasonable size, nor are there requirements that every cache must contain swag... in fact, pre-form containers are more rugged and water tight than any lock & lock that I've ever seen and they're easier to hide too.

I respect the fact that you prefer one type of container over another, however that doesn't mean you should call my preferred container "junk". That would be like me calling Dodge trucks "junk" because I prefer Chevy trucks.

Just my Two Cents

I am sorry that you and others have misinterpreted my comparison made to the lock n lock as being only a reference to the container size and type. This was meant to illustrate what the then minister saw as the type of geocache being portrayed as what was being placed in our BC Parks then, and how he might view the pre-form that is so often used today. I don’t think he would today proclaim “Go forth and multiply”. The same of course applies to Metro or other parks.

I certainly did not suggest all geocaches should contain swag. I do not consider your preferred choice of container as being any more or less “Junk” than an ammo can, which is my preferred container. To non-cachers they are all junk, no different than other garbage left behind by visitors. My point is how any, or all of these containers are being viewed by the public and those who make the decisions regarding caching in our parks.

As far as trucks are concerned, I have owned both Dodge and Ford, and I consider both to have models which are Junk, as does Chevy I am sure. I cannot see the comparison here.

”Teddy2k” wrote:

For the record, pre-form containers are appox. 8 times the size of a standard bison tube and such, are usually marked as "small" containers... not "micro" containers.

Vanislelady refers to these as micro’s, I have not suggested they are specifically any size. The definitions provided by Groundspeak would seem to put them in the micro category since they cannot contain swag, however that again is a mute point, and has nothing to do with my OP.
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Ozzie and the boys



Joined: Oct 04, 2010
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

If we each look back at our "Finds" I'll bet the majority are small and micros... we must not hate them too much! Honestly I sometimes prefer a smaller cache that presents a challange vs a larger cache that you can see from 20 feet away and can only be in one spot.

As for the members only component I have mixed feelings however the unfortunate reality is a lot of time goes into theses and it does appear to offer some longevity. Nothing worse than taking a day with your family to go on a hike only to find half the caches missing because someone down loaded a free ap on their phone and decided to remove or tamper with those same caches.

Let me see two kids a dog and a power trail in the sun! Yup I don't mind at all. Thats three new people using a park trail we would othewise never visited.

The container looks great to me, is that write in the rain paper in the photo... awesome, some people do care!
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vanislelady



Joined: Jan 20, 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Campbell River

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

IRLPGUY wrote:


Vanislelady refers to these as micro’s, I have not suggested they are specifically any size. The definitions provided by Groundspeak would seem to put them in the micro category since they cannot contain swag, however that again is a mute point, and has nothing to do with my OP.


There is no size comparison on your picture.. To me, it appears to be a "micro"

However, it does not really matter what size is being placed in the parks as to how they are hidden and what impact they will have.

A "micro" hidden properly and easily found by cachers could possibly have less of an impact than a larger container that may be found by non-cachers and destroyed or left laying out in the open with the cache contents strewn about. Or, placed in such a way that damage is done to place it or find it.
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jangor



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Surrey, BC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

I think this discussion may be getting a bit off track.

What we should be considering is the appropriate size container to be placing when we hide our caches. The concerns expressed by BC Provincial Parks and Metro Parks regarding caching are mostly potential environmental damage. For the most part, these parks are pristine forest or environmentally special and sensitive areas.

While hiding a micro in the forest is "easy" it is also much more likely to cause damage as it generally takes a lot more searching to find it. The better choice may be a larger container which is easier to find without doing damage.

As we go forward and these Park authorities monitor cache locations, environmental damage will be our downfall. Why take the chance of causing damage by placing micros in the forest?
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

My caches (including a couple of micros) are in parks. I give excellent hints. Many of the micros I have found in similar areas also have excellent hints. That helps minimise the damage. Well thought out placements make the biggest difference.

I've seen damage in parks caused by people seeking out ammo cans too - stumps pulled apart etc.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
My caches (including a couple of micros) are in parks. I give excellent hints. Many of the micros I have found in similar areas also have excellent hints. That helps minimise the damage. Well thought out placements make the biggest difference.

I've seen damage in parks caused by people seeking out ammo cans too - stumps pulled apart etc.

Well thought out placements, good co-ordinates and proper hints make a huge difference. However anyone tearing apart a stump to find an ammo can must have thought they were looking for a micro.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Ozzie and the boys wrote:
If we each look back at our "Finds" I'll bet the majority are small and micros... we must not hate them too much! Honestly I sometimes prefer a smaller cache that presents a challange vs a larger cache that you can see from 20 feet away and can only be in one spot.

As for the members only component I have mixed feelings however the unfortunate reality is a lot of time goes into theses and it does appear to offer some longevity. Nothing worse than taking a day with your family to go on a hike only to find half the caches missing because someone down loaded a free ap on their phone and decided to remove or tamper with those same caches.

Let me see two kids a dog and a power trail in the sun! Yup I don't mind at all. Thats three new people using a park trail we would othewise never visited.

The container looks great to me, is that write in the rain paper in the photo... awesome, some people do care!

Looking at Finds for most people would indicate that small or micro caches indeed make up the greatest portion of the caches we have found. That for the most part is due to the fact that in urban areas they make up the majority of cache hides, and very likely has nothing to do with preference.

Thank you for seeing the reference to another component of my OP. I do not think we can attribute the majority of missing caches as being muggled because someone has downloaded a free app. I have some caches that have existed for almost 4 years and there certainly are older ones around than that, most were/are not PM. On the other hand I have puzzle caches hidden in out of the way places not frequented by hikers, which are being removed. I think it highly unlikely they are being tampered with by someone with a free app.

My kids are grown up, and have children of their own, when they were young we spent many hours hiking and exploring along with our dog. Both my grand daughters have been introduced to Geocaching and have accounts. They also like to hike and explore but they do it all the time without the carrot of a cache in front of them. I assume that is due to what I taught their parents when they were young, before Geocaching. It is great if Geocaching is what motivates you to take your family out to explore the parks and other places. At least they are getting out there. Good for you.
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grafinator



Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Coruscant

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Good topic. Thanks for posting this thread.
I can definitely understand where Ed is coming from, as I personally am not generally a fan of micro containers myself either.

But there is also another side to this topic that I think should be considered. Although many geocachers are not fans of powertrails, which is their right, powertrails are a newer and quickly growing aspect of geocaching.

Although some people do not agree with powertrails, they exist, and just because they do not agree with them doesn't mean they should go away.
As well, just because a geocache, or trail of geocaches exists does not mean a geocacher must go find it. A geocache hide does not need to be tailored to every persons needs, instead, a geocacher should tailor their finds to their own personal preferences.

I recently did a geocaching trip down to the Las Vegas area and did approximatley 2500 geocaches in a 10 day period. These 2500 geocaches consisted of 5 different powertrails ranging in size from 150 to 1021 geocaches.

Almost every one of these powertrails consisted of 35mm film canisters and also some preform containers as well.

The preform containers were hidden by having a PVC pipe sharpened to a point and then driven into the ground, and the preform then placed into the opening, a very intrusive way to hide a geocache by some BC geocacher standards, yet completely acceptable by Nevada and Utah standards.

The powertrail in Chilliwack is no different than any of the powertrails I have personanlly done, in regards to the type of containers used, but far less intrusive hides, in my personal opinion.

I don't understand why some of the BC geocachers continually complain about geocaching hides found here, that are accepted in all other corners of the world. If they are accepted, and even praised by other geocachers, than why is it so different here?

This is a friendly message, I am simply trying to understand why geocaching in BC has become so political over the last few years.
I have no enemies in geocaching, only those with more finds than me.

_________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing. - Darth Vader
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Glad you jumped in here Grafinator, and shared your point of view. Power trails are indeed a growing aspect of Geocaching. When that power trail is placed somewhere in a desert in Nevada or Utah, it is likely of little or no concern to Park Officials and Land Managers in those States. On the other hand when a power trail is created in a Metro Vancouver Park or Provincial Park we are talking about an entirely different thing. We as Geocachers have no right to place caches wherever we choose, we have been afforded that luxury by those who manage our parks through consultation with those managers. If we abuse that luxury we will surely lose what we now enjoy.

This ideal does not apply only to power trails, but all cache placements in our Parks. We must consider locally the effect that large numbers of caches will have on areas that may be sensitive to seekers and the potential for damage. We must also take into consideration how our use of the parks, will be viewed by the non-caching public. They too use these parks. Not to mention the Managers of the parks.

If we followed the example set by our neighbors to the south we would not have the large numbers of Grizzly Bears we have, we would not enjoy the vision and call of all the Eagles that visit in the fall and nest in the area. These are just a couple of many things that set us apart from others around the world. We enjoy now what we have preserved, and leave a legacy for our children because we did not follow the example of others.

What I personally hope to leave for the new cachers that will follow, is the ability to continue to cache in our local and Provincial Parks. I don’t want them to point at me and say I ruined the game for them and was the cause of banishment from our Parks and green spaces because of my caching practices.

These too are just my friendly thoughts.
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grafinator



Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Coruscant

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

Well said Ed, I agree with you completely that we need to preserve what we have here in BC and lead by example.

I do still find it frustrating though that we cannot all find a way, without conflict, to enjoy the game we so love and realize that not all caches will be appropriate for all finders.

_________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing. - Darth Vader
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Caches in Provincial and Local Parks Reply with quote

There are some excellent points being raised in this topic!

I feel that micros and nanos are best placed in an urban setting...unless they are part of a clever cammo'd container in non-sensitive areas of the forests.

Park Stewardship here in BC is one of the best in the world. Cachers can help or hinder those efforts by where and how they place caches.

Whether one chooses to do or not do caches that offend their ethics, those caches are still there and their potential for damaging sensitive areas still exists.

Building a solid relationship with all Park Stewards is important to Geocaching if we want our sport to flourish. Read the Guidelines before placing a hide and consider the bigger picture of just how many cachers will beat a path to its door.

marmi
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