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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Trading Fairly
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Trading Fairly
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

It's always a pleasure to find a well stocked and well maintained cache, especially when the trade items are kid related and unique.

Anyone else finding that the quality of swag lately is quite sad...with broken toys, rusty bits of ?, etc.? I also see logs stating that the cacher took something but did not leave anything.

I would like to see the trade item part of caching, take something, leave something of equal or better value, be maintained. That's part of what keeps the children interested in caching. And they learn so much in the process. They learn how to be fair and responsible. They learn Math, they learn cooperation and they learn that one good turn deserves another.
All good lessons.

marmi
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doingitoldschool



Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

marmi_and_tas wrote:
It's always a pleasure to find a well stocked and well maintained cache, especially when the trade items are kid related and unique.

Anyone else finding that the quality of swag lately is quite sad...with broken toys, rusty bits of ?, etc.? I also see logs stating that the cacher took something but did not leave anything.

I would like to see the trade item part of caching, take something, leave something of equal or better value, be maintained. That's part of what keeps the children interested in caching. And they learn so much in the process. They learn how to be fair and responsible. They learn Math, they learn cooperation and they learn that one good turn deserves another.
All good lessons.

marmi

All fine points, but really, posting this here is like preaching to the choir. Still, I guess the choir can always use a reminder - they're in the service too.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Wow, tell me about it! You know how many times I have gone to a cache after MrGigabyte left a rubber raft or canoe and found it gone and replaced with a used bus transfer! Talk about unfair trades!

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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Personally I believe that this is just petty idea - trading UP. Who cares? Really?
I put swag in my caches because it is there for other cachers to take. If they trade they trade, if they don't they don't. It is the kind thing to do by trading equally, but cachers should NOT expect to have others trade UP. I truly believe that if cachers are going to be petty about other cachers 'stealing' the swag, then buy dollar store items, and let it go.

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scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

The one basic mantra groundspeak and geocachers around the world have been chanting for ten years is "Trade equally or Trade up."

Whether anyone agrees with it or not is not the question. It's simply basic etiquette to trade fairly. It's showing respect to the cache owner and the geocachers that find the cache after to keep the cache well stocked with quality items.

I've always wondered if cache plunderers are the same people that pour handfulls of straws, serviettes, salt and sugar into their McDonalds bag for use on camping trips. Or if cache plunderers have guest towels from various motels in their bathroom and glass A&W mugs pilfered from the Food fair in their cupboards. **snarfle** It's most likely a behaviour that doesn't stop at geocaches.

Although it may be considered a low form of theft, I see it more as a case of conceit. Any person who believes they are entitled to a cache's contents must care for themselves much more than other people. They're definitely not showing a shred of empathy for the child that finds the cache later nor exhibiting any respect for the person who spent a lot of time, money and effort to place that cache for them. Regardless how cache plunderers may rationalize unfair trading, they truly are being disrespectful to others.

Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all. It's a very simple concept.

Geocaching doesn't have many rules. So, I don't think it it is too much to ask for people to follow this small one.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

So here I am up in Whistler for a few days, one of my "to do's" is to put a new log book in my Whistler Village Cache.

Truthfully, its a very busy cache, and I'd not expect the re-stock I did last year to last very long. But to find a hand-full of business cards, with no value, expired ticket to a Museum in Alberta, broken bits of some toy in it, NOTHING worth trading for was sad.

So I have restocked it, and today after a day and a half and a handful of new finds, I'll go check it out of curiosity. I'm not holding my breath. on finding anything nice put back in the cache.

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Chewy_06



Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

With my caches I've found a fairly consistent, rapid degradation of the swag to pretty much zero. I had one blitz cache that had a specific purpose that i restocked a couple of times, but now that the blitz is over, I think i'll decomission the intent and let it be used as the caching community seems to want to use it (it seems to be popular for TB's which is nice too)

The ongoing trend from decent stuff that had thought put into it towards geojunk reminds me of the second law of thermodynamics - "entropy is always increasing". I think we have the second law of geocaching here - "the value of swag will always decrease". Dont ask me what the first law is...

That and the recent spate of caches going missing (has anyone else had trouble with their caches in Surrey getting muggled over the last two months or is it just us again?) I've decided to launch a set of swagless caches. Some that cant hold it (ok, actually, im planning for most of them to not be big enough to hold it and no, i dont mind micros one bit - as long as they arent brainless ones put in a forest) and some that can hold it, i just wont put it in to start.
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

I understand the logic of trading...we either trade fair or we don't trade at all...this is what we teach the kids.

But if caches seem to be becoming McDonald storage bins, then don't put swag in at all. Then the CO has nothing to worry about, and nothing to complain about either.

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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MsChief-Gps_y



Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

It's a sad fact that some folk think a cache is a free store.
It's a wonderful fact that some folk do trade evenly or up... or simply leave things and take nothing. Sometimes I find delightful trades left in my caches.
Recently someone has been leaving very beautifully done handmade earings! Kudo's to them!

Sad that someone thinks a nickel, a quarter, that broken plastic thing is a fair trade even for a dollar store item which with taxes is over a dollar. lol
The best definition of integrity is when you are good even when no one is looking. And with the loss of the logging etiquette of stating what trades were made it seems worse. If the trades were fair then why not log them? It used to be interesting to read the transition of swag and know who left that item you traded for! One time I traded an interesting item just to find out what it was and was so disappointed there was no mention in log book or online who/what it was. Took a few years before I learned it was a 'bird caller' and I treasure it to this day.

Something I'd appreciate seeing:
-Packaged /In plastic bags to keep them clean. And maybe like in the case of earings etc a firm" backing" in the package to protect them. I had to remove a few because a cacher(s), probably males, lol, stuffed them back in (when there was tons of room) carelessly breaking the 'posts'. I've taken clothy things home being so dirty they looked like junk, to wash them so now they look good again, packaged and replaced them to have them traded quickly.
One person's junk doesn't mean breaking it. One of the funniest things I've found was a ruler all bent up to get it to fit so now it wasn't usable. Cracked me up and made me shake my head.
Ah well, c'est la vie.
I salute those who do trade nicely!!!

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Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

What Bestred explains is exactly what is happening.

When I started geocaching, many cache owners took great pride in what they placed in their caches. We're not talking dollar store stuff. There were headlamps, flashlights, 5 dollar coupons for lunch, very creative toys and utility items used for outdoor adventurers. Some caches were quite impressive.

At that time, geocaching was relatively new and people did trade fairly. What we traded was equally as important as what we took out as nobody wanted to appear to be a cheapskate.

The popularity of geocaching is perhaps to blame. There isn't just one person who won't trade fairly. There are many. And with that cache degregation is widespread. People don't feel they have to stock their caches anymore. The result is the find has overshadowed the treasure. It's not worth looking to see if there is anything interesting in a cache anymore. I find that truly sad because the gems are now far and few between.

In the future, perhaps there will be no swag in caches. It's kinda sad because the swag has definitely been an intigral part of the hunt. I guess it is just part of the evolution of the game. From great swag to nothing. I am one of those people who will miss the swag. Well, I already do because the true swag is gone from a cache within the first 20 finds.
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MsChief-Gps_y



Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

You are right Stu! I'd forgot how nice the swag used to be. Again, that was when the etiquette of stating your trades was followed. I used to carry swag ranging from a couple of dollars up to a 20 or more dollar value to be able to do fair trading. Now I carry swag of lesser value as I got tired of carrying a heavy swag bag endlessly and nothing to trade for.
Some of the swag I've traded for that is caching memories: a great tea-towel with how to tie knots on it, the aforementioned bird-caller, a wee plastic alien, a beautiful fairy, and other tiny things that were cute or memorable for the day. Thank you to the cachers who left them!!!

In one sense I don't care. I want to Find caches. Period. I want to enjoy the walk and have the pleasure of finding where the lil devil is hiding. Tradeable swag is icing on the cake.
It's the 'cake' I want!!!

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Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Well it explains why one of my caches has had a Rod Stewart cassette tape sitting in it for about a year. How can you find anything of value remotely close to the treasure that item is? Some trades are just priceless.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
Well it explains why one of my caches has had a Rod Stewart cassette tape sitting in it for about a year. How can you find anything of value remotely close to the treasure that item is? Some trades are just priceless.
If you want my body and you think I'm sexy
come on sugar let me know....

I'd so go get that, but sadly I have no cassette players to play it! Jester
Kind of like all the VHS movies I have on the shelf.

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scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

The digital revolution is upon us and my favourite video store "BETA ONLY" just closed down. I guess I can skip VHS.

It might be an idea to start a new swag revolution. Frends, romans countrymen. Everyone spend a week of placing great swag in caches without taking anything. Hmmmmm. Yes, that will fly. I'm sure of it. **teehee**
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

scruffster wrote:
In the future, perhaps there will be no swag in caches. It's kinda sad because the swag has definitely been an intigral part of the hunt. I guess it is just part of the evolution of the game. From great swag to nothing. I am one of those people who will miss the swag. Well, I already do because the true swag is gone from a cache within the first 20 finds.

The future is here now. With the invention of the Micro and the Nano the move to swagless caches has already begun. Simply look at how many micro and nano caches there are in your area compared to any size larger. In my area it is pretty much 50-50.
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

My goodness, preaching to the Choir would be fun if there was a Choir. For heaven's sake, all I ment by posting this topic was to remind Cachers that trading fairly is a good thing to do. If you don't want to trade anything...fine.
If you do, don't leave nasty things. And, please bag those lovely trade items in a Zip Lock bag so they don't rust or give mold a hold. How hard can that be?

Like Scruffster and MsChief Gps_y said, showing respect for the sport of caching and the Cache Owner's hides is a measure of your integrity.

Micros and Nanos are annoying me lately as they are, generally, quite boring.

marmi
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doingitoldschool



Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Well, you've generated some interesting comments, so your post obviously struck a nerve.
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

doingitoldschool wrote:
Well, you've generated some interesting comments, so your post obviously struck a nerve.

Interesting posts for sure! Even if a few were quite contradictory.

I have to admit that I am a Thrift Store addict and I find the best swag in these places. There's a Church near where we live, St. Augustine's, and they have a store called Second Hand Rows. Many of their Parishoners are very generous with their donations and the prices for same are ridiculously low. I get great swag for very little money and also get to support St. Augustine's Community programs at the same time. Win, win!

On a sad swag note...Rockabout Jems in Steveston has closed. This was a favorite of mine and I will miss shopping there.
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Well when TESKELLY and I started, some caches had the 'swag' (nicer items) and some had the yuck swag (whatever)
I have noticed the decline, but not in a lot of caches.
I am not one to log all my finds, as by the time I get home I am either too tired or I forget to. I have close to 200 I haven't logged. Some are written down and I will get to to them sometime, but no urgency, but my point is we don't trade unless we have the kids, and really it is about the kids. (for us at least)

If swag is an 'issue', then when doing geocaching 101 events (and I believe ANYONE can do them right?) maybe there should be some stress on swag. A display of good swag and bad swag.
That is something that isn't touched in 101 events very much. Sure cachers read what it says online, but geocaching.com doesn't say what has to be bought or how much has to be spent.

Maybe instead of calling it a Geocaching 101 event, call it a "Making a Cache/Learn the 'Trade' 101 Event" (ps if anyone uses this...I get full credit Razz )
and teach making a cache with the good swag and how to trade with good swag and logging it and the importance of it.

Just my thoughts Smile

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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curnew



Joined: Mar 31, 2009
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Unfortunately, the more people that visit your cache, the more likely all the good stuff will be gone and replaced with doggy doo anyways. Here is an example:
www.geocaching.com/see...477567fc9f

1) it is an ammo can way out of the way
2) it has lasted over a year and not needed maintenance
3) It's only had 10 finders
4) people have been respectful of the theme
img.geocaching.com/cac...1834f0.jpg
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Not to make excuses.. but a very typical day of caching for many people is to just pick an area where there is a bunch to do, and find some caches. I don't know about other people, but I don't read the cache page on every cache I'm hunting before I head out the door. It's quite possible a cacher will just go to the coordinates, hunt for the cache, find it, trade and have no idea there is a theme or trading requirements. When out in the field a cacher might read the hint, or the cache page (if paperless) when they are having trouble.

Even when you get home, and your logging, its more a matter of clicking through to the log page from GSAK or quickly going down the list of 'nearest caches' without ever looking at the cache description.

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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

I feel sorry then for those that make their cache pages beautiful for people to look at.....all that work Smack

I look looking at the cache pages like that...and I am glad that we have our phones (iPhone) cause we can save the caches ahead of time and if no signal it still is available and we can read the description, etc.

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Indeed CB..."It's quite possible a cacher will just go to the coordinates, hunt for the cache, find it, trade and have no idea there is a theme or trading requirements."
It's almost impossible to keep enough variety in cache stash to meet theme requirements but we try.
I am at the point where only deserving caches get my swag. By deserving I mean well maintained caches, caches where the CO is engaged and on the ball.

MsChief Gps_y and I were recently at our Habitat Island cache. Originally it was stocked with lots of nice little goodies. When she opened the cache...wow...only a dime and a nickel rattled around in the cache container! Obviously the trading rule has failed and people just don't give a cat's ass anymore.

Habitat Island is a high profile location that attracts many visitors from other countries. If you are not a 'fair trade' cacher, that's your problem but do think about what that does to how others view us. It's not all about YOU in caching, it's about how we respect the sport.

If I were caching in another Country I would love to have some quality swag momentoes of that experience.
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MsChief-Gps_y



Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Trading Fairly Reply with quote

Oh the ironies of Life and Caching. lol Just after my last post about the nice trades equalling good swag in one of my caches... it was raided of them all. lol, sigh There had been 6 finders, three who logged on line and everything nice was gone, no trades mentioned in log book and a dime, 2 pennies, and a European bus transfer from last March left left in the cache. And obviously more taken then was left 'trades', ahem, for.
A couple of years ago caching in Washinton I noticed a trend there of the swag having the dollar value listed on the bag. I thought 'what the..."
I figured it was to help out those who can't evaluate value/fairness, lol.
But that's the way it goes....
Swag is simply icing on the cake. All I really want is the fun of the find of a nicely hid cache. I'll leave things in well done caches with owners that actually do maintenance and take pride in their hide. If it's a 'throw-down' hide for only garnering smilies, then I won't bother.
I'd thought part of 101's was mentioning how trades should be handled.
Along with explaining that geocoins and TB's having owners, are not swag to be traded for, and the point is simply to move them for owners. Never mind the basics like using a gps, lift, look, replace and not trampling/destroying the area. You don't teach 101 golfing by only saying get the ball in the hole with as few strikes as possible. There is a ton of other etiquettes and rules etc to learn.. as with anything.
Marmi finds the coolest swag for trading with. It may not be brand new but it certainly looks it.
I'm still trying to get my 'Fair Trade?!?" TB going. Not enough Time, arrgh. It's for placing those filthy, broken swag items so they can be useful for something!!! Should be a hoot to watch what gets added to it.

Ultimately the real treasure is the cache.

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Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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