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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure
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Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure
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Doonchak



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Totally agreed Phil. I know that I didn't think of all possibilities when I placed my 'Close Call' cache. Most of the first people ended up at a nearby fence digging around, but it never occured to me that people would search near there. To be fair as well though, months after I updated the cache page specifically telling people to stay away from the fence, people were still searching over by the fence regardless of what the cache page said.

Clues are tough...because a clue (almost) always makes sense to the hider or someone familiar with the cache, but often makes no sense to a seeker unless it is a blatent give away. Agreed that 'nearby' is not much of a hint Beanie luckily Chak, my partner in crime, found it in like 10 seconds, so I didn't have to search for it at all, heh.

By no means was disagreeing with your statements, I just wanted to make sure that anyone reading this thread, who might not be familiar with the cache you are referencing, understood that the situtation at that cache is quite different then the caches we have around here tis all Kiss

Doon of Doonchak
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loungelions



Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Having placed several caches in Vancouver, I have never had any problems with the city or with their Green Streets program approving caches. All they wanted to know was where it was going to be placed and would it cause damage where it was placed. One of my caches is accessible from the sidewalk and another in a part of a park with no underbrush. Another was placed with the approval of the Green Streets program after I had talked to a local property owner who was looking after the area informally. The last caches I placed in Mountain View Cemetery were placed after I checked with the cemetery manager and he asked me to show the groundskeeper where I was going to put them so that the staff wouldn't be accidentally cleaning them up.
I had no problems with any of my placements and believe that if people go through the channels that their caches are probably less likely to cause problems as the problematic ones would be vetoed. At least in Vancouver, the Parks Board and Green Streets do seem to be positively inclined toward allowing caches. I hope that Surrey will work at the same positive attitude.
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jangor



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Surrey, BC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Tulameen_Turtles wrote:
Even though this may create extra red tape and may not encourage the same quantity of caches - it may help encourage quality which then could result in a better cache experience for us old timers, and be a better "turn on" for new cachers. Then we don't hear that - ughhh I'll never try that again. I'm sure we've all had at least one of those caches..

It would seem to me that if this policy goes into effect, the only caches in Surrey will be lamp post hides in shopping malls and the like. Those are the caches that turn new cachers off. "Why are we going here?" The way we hook new cachers is to take them to places and parks they didn't even know existed in their own back yard. In a past life, I spent many, many hours working with Surrey and you must be prepared to work at their speed. Cache approval will in all likelyhood be a very low priority item so if you want to place a cache for Blitz 2010, call and make your appointment now. I am sure it is too late for this year.

The way we got started was seeing that there were caches that were close to home in parks that we visited regularly. To our great and pleasant surprise there were parts of these parks we didn't even know existed.

Make no mistake, this is the sharp end of the spear. Who will be next - Coquitlam, Langley, Maple Ridge? Federal land is a no no. Provincial is regulated. If we lose our public city land we will have no local hobby left.
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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

There seems to be an idea floating out there, that I will be the only voice for geocachers at the meeting tomorrow night. I don't know how this idea came about. The reason the Manager of Urban Forestry and Environmental Programs agreed to an open meeting is so all geocachers can ask questions, have input and have thier voices heard. I asked for this kind of meeting. My views are know by the Manager. Our lastest emails are seven pages long. I've spent hours going over Surrey Policies and reviewing minutes of committees. The more questions I ask, the more questions I come up with. If only my view or the official view of the BCGA counted, this meeting would not be happening.

I asked about existing caches. Am I glad to say I have an answer for ever cacher that has a cache in a park. As long as a cache isn't in a "prohibited" area there will be no need to move them. So now I have the question of "prohibited". Is prohibited areas referring to the first point in the Procedure? Or point 7?

I will be meeting with the Manager before and most likley a few times after tomorrow night's meeting to sort out the questions, concerns and ideas that come up. My goal is to work with whatever procedure Surrey has in place, for the betterment of all geocachers.

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bettsbugs



Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Hello!

While I am not directly involved in this issue specifically because I am from the Cranbrook area and have never cached anywhere on the west side of the province, I am interested in how this meeting comes out. I think the outcome could have long reaching effects for everyone in the province as other municipalities decide to instill stricter policies.

I agree that we need to work with the bureaucracies to help create policies that allow geocaching with minimal impacts to environments and to governing bodies. I believe one of the reasons that geocachers are being singled out is that the caches are trackable to real people. Dog walkers, joggers, and polluters are all anonymous and very hard to track down unless specifically caught in the act at a precise time. Here in the Kootenays, one of the biggest issues of I have seen is motorized vehicles on prohibited lands. All these damage the environment more so than geocaching does.

It is easy, though, to blame it on a cache because it is a concrete thing that can be pointed to. I too must make a better effort to make my caches more environmentally friendly to help keep this type of knee jerk reaction from happening in the community here. My husband and I will be re-evaluating each of our caches to make sure that it isn't causing damage where there shouldn't be any and removing those we feel could cause issue.

I hope through the meeting tomorrow night, you are able to convince city officials that there is far less impact than they perceive so that the might reconsider some of the stricter policies on their proposed procedure.

I wish I could be there.

Kathy
Buggette of Bettsbugs
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adroit_seeker



Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Just a couple of notes to make about this.

First off I would think that a policy like this would be hard for someone like mountain man to police, so it would have to have some sort of pre approval that would have to go thru the parks board. I am guess if this is done, that it I would almost guarentee that it will soon become a GVRD policy and process, and mountain man will have to apply this to every new cache placed from Vancouver Island to Chilliwack. So don't think that this will effect just Surrey, it WILL effect all the sounding regions.

In my option there should be a representative in each area Surrey, Langley, Maple Ridge, Burnaby, New Westminster etc. from the BCGA cache review members and from the city parks that can go to any cache, and review its placement, and if determined by 2 off 3 members that any cache is deemed to be environmentally damaging, that the cache owner has 48 hours to remove, and archive the cache or it will be archived by mountian man. This allows geocachers to place them, and we as members of the BCGA can send a request if we deem a cache is inappropriate. The city can go thru and review any existing caches and follow the same process of requesting a cache be reviewed by the review commity.

This will:

- Remove the red tape by 80%
- Create a natural and existing peers review of any cache
- Reduce costs by the city to manage this process by 80%
- While maintaining the well being of the environment
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CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

"12. Any caches deemed inappropriate may be removed by the City."

My biggest concern and one I don't beleive has been brought up. Exactly who with the city will be removing problem geocaches? Will it be one of the grounds crew? If so will this person be reporting the removal or just removing it? Once the cache is removed will someone be contacting the BCGA or Geocaching.com? My fear is that caches will be removed and the cache page not archived creating a DNF situation at each location which in my opinion will create twice the damage with people looking for caches that are no longer there yet still active on Geocaching.com. If I get a chance I guess that will be my questions to the City members.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

I don't think that the city needs to send out paid staff to approve any cache. I personally do not want to create a new job(s) in the city with my taxes when the staff they have has enough of a difficult time with the jobs they have to do already.

They are plenty of rules in parks that are not actively enforced, because there is no one to do it.

I bet there are dozens and dozens of homeless camps all over parks in the lower mainland. Torn down one day, moved and rebuilt the next. They probably cause more damage in a week that all caches combined do in years. Garbage, fires, defecation. But some sealed bison tubes and Tupperware is a problem?

How many times have you come across used condoms, toilet paper , clothing strewn about? More times than I'd like.. But no, a fake rock is the problem.

It's all about perspective. A bunch of mature people, exercising their bodies, and minds. Getting together to socialize, explore and discover some great places all over our cities.

The parks are supposed to be used for those reasons, a geocache is the 'nerdy' way of getting people there. A lot of jurisdictions recognize this and support the sport.

We only have to be more vocal to our fellow cachers. You see a bad placement email the owner and say so, and politely say in the log. If the problem persists, and logs keep indicating a problem, then remove the cache when you go looking for it. You'll have a lot of previous finders logs to support your decision. PS. Don't log it as a 'Found It' when you remove it, that is hypocritical. If its not a good hide, its not a good find!

Don't want cachers tromping around in the dark, an hour after your cache goes live? SAY SO ON YOUR PAGE! Delete the log if they do, keep deleting the log if they re-log. Geez folks, is it that important to add +1 to your count and ignore a problem to get that little tick?

We just need to be self-policing, and yeh, it will upset some people. Better that than no caches, and an over-burdened bureaucracy.

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~~~~ _CanadianBacon_~~~~
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gotlost001



Joined: Nov 06, 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Abbotsford

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:

While the original cache is not there there is a cache that goes along with the Plaque on site that you are required to sign to get credit for the plaque. The Cache says this "There is a container nearby, which contains the logbook." Well I met 3 other cachers from California there and we looked and looked and it was not till after they left I found it. It was some distance the plaque.

Phil
I am surprised that it was hard to find. When I was there it wast just a few feet away from the plaque, almost in plain sight. That shows how cache placement can change by cachers who think they are doing a good deed by hiding the cache just a little better than they found it. When you times that by 100 it can move a long way!
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

The only address I can find for the Surrey Nature Center is:
14275 96 Ave , so I am guessing you should enter off of 96th Ave:
Approx here:
Nature Center Enterance

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jangor



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Surrey, BC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

_canadianbacon_ wrote:
The only address I can find for the Surrey Nature Center is:
14275 96 Ave , so I am guessing you should enter off of 96th Ave:
Approx here:
Nature Center Enterance

On the map that Catapult jeff sent out, the entrance is 9800 140th Street.
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MsChief-Gps_y



Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

There was no address given per se, only a map: You get to the meeting off the 9800 block of 140th between 96th and Fraser Hwy. On the East side is a road (almost across from 9815) , follow it along and take the first right into the meeting location.

Overall we do a decent job of self-policing. I'm chuckling as I read this recalling the odd cache over the years that mtn-man published in innocence but the first couple of finders went "oops, ah-ah, no way" contacting the owner and mtn-man and within hours or that day, it was archived. No fuss or drama: simply dealt with.
I do think more of us need to pro-actively reach out to newbies mentoring them in the guidelines and ethics of our beloved activity because mostly it's new folk as in any sport or activity that could benefit from knowing the ropes.
It's sad the City doesn't realize all the good things we've quietly done over the years: the endless CITO'ing, tourists, bringing LM people to Surrey who'd never have visited except for caching (overcoming Sry's less than desirable reputation), the history lessons that are the focus of many caches which other jurisdictions have welcomed with open arms, etc. At least I can demonstrate it was a cacher that allowed the city to retrieve the metal poles the metal thieves had stashed. They have my call on record. Most walkers in parks only tsk over garbage. We remove it or call the city when it's to big (couches etc) for us.
We are a benefit and an asset.
Where I cache I spend money. If Surrey has no caches for me in parks then I'll be spending the day in other LM cities buying gas, food, shopping for groceries at the end of the day on the way home, general shopping, all my discretionary income.
See y'all tonight...

_________________
Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Well you won't have to worry about me being there as I am still in Phoenix. I am taking another day off to lie around the pool where it is suppose to be 28°C this afternoon. It was nice to have breakfast around the pool and read the morning paper today.

I am off to Palm Springs tomorrow to cache.

Have fun tonight and remember to play nice Jester

Phil
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

29°C here in Surrey, and we are all at Jeff's pool getting free massages and fancy drinks with umbrellas in them. Oh well, we'll be thinking of you Phill! Hope you not suffering too much!

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Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

_canadianbacon_ wrote:
29°C here in Surrey, and we are all at Jeff's pool getting free massages and fancy drinks with umbrellas in them. Oh well, we'll be thinking of you Phill! Hope you not suffering too much!

Yea sure, and pigs fly to......

I saw something on the weather channel this morning saying something about a chance of snow tomorrow and Thursday?

You would look really good around that pool at Jeff's if that happens..... Pigs will then fly for sure.

Phil
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jangor



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Surrey, BC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Philatsea wrote:
_canadianbacon_ wrote:
29°C here in Surrey, and we are all at Jeff's pool getting free massages and fancy drinks with umbrellas in them. Oh well, we'll be thinking of you Phill! Hope you not suffering too much!

Yea sure, and pigs fly to......

I saw something on the weather channel this morning saying something about a chance of snow tomorrow and Thursday?

You would look really good around that pool at Jeff's if that happens..... Pigs will then fly for sure.

Phil

Sounds like a challenge if it snows. That pic could win the photo contest....
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The Wet Coast Explorers



Joined: Dec 23, 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Coquitlam

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

From the information Jeff emailed me, and using Google Earth, these are the coordinates that I'm navigating to tonight:

Driveway Entrance @ 49.180808 -122.834197 ( Google Maps: is.gd/kHH1 )
Parking @ 49.178900 -122.829884 ( Google Maps: is.gd/kHGq )

However, PLEASE email Jeff and RSVP if you are planning on attending. He has asked us to do this and I'd encourage anyone thinking of attending to honor his request.
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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

From the map it does show two enterances. One off 96 and one off 140. The field on the southwest corner of the map is now a big hole with two cranes. A new part of the Surrey Hospital. The enterance is just to the north of this big hole on 140 which has been torn up due to new water and sewer lines being installed.

I guessed and said about 20 geocachers for tonight. There are so many ideas out there and I hope everyone will get a chance to speak. I am meeting with the Urban Forestry Manager before the meeting as I have not seem the format this meeting will take.

Thank you to website members that posted. I hope not matter what goes on in Surrey's parks we as a group can come together, learn from this and become a pro active Association.

And the pool, yes it is there but I wouldn't want to swim in it right now.

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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Update from Surrey!

Wow! What a great turn out. The meeting with the Manager of Urban Forestry went really well from every stand point. After 2 hours of talking and listening I think everyone there understands each other. Our caching worries, concerns, ideas and questions were answered. There is still lots of work to be done and in the coming weeks our relationship with parks will grow.

Thank you to all the geocachers from Surrey that turned out. A really special thank you to Scruffy, Ms Turtle and Wet Coast for crossing the untolled bridge to support the BCGA members and all geocachers that would or have cached in Surrey.

_________________
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Doonchak



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

That's great to hear! Would have liked to come if for no other reason then, as a newer cacher, to hear what the issues at hand are, but unfortunatly I had to work late Sad

Were any specific changes discussed? Or do they plan on taking away the learnings they have from this meeting and make changes before bringing it back to the group again?
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MsChief-Gps_y



Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

and Thanks to Mr. Team K1W1 for coming to Surrey too. He re-scheduled his date with his wife just for us. And she come first in his life.

and Hot Rod2 also crossed the bridge into Surrey (kindly chauffeuring me so I could attend in safety)

and Hwy-Guy drove a ways also.

The meeting went quite well, friendly and productive. With some good natured ribbing. We left with a clearer understanding of Parks intent and Parks is making some sensible adjustments to the procedure for their benefit and ours.
I am looking forward to Jeff's posting the results from our meeting once Parks has implemented the changes.

_________________
Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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landsharkz



Joined: Sep 28, 2005
Posts: 356
Location: Victoria

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

This sounds really good. Thank you to everyone who attended and a special thanks to Jeff who has been working with Surrey on this issue for a long time now.
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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

I'm sorry!!!!! I didn't mean to miss thanking the other cachers who travelled across the bridges and down the freeway. When you get up before 5 in the morning the brain stops working around 10 PM. Again thank you to everyone who showed up.

I'm going to work on making sure they understand CITO, Event, and earthcaches. After thinking about it today we will need to get those added to Green Timbers Forest so we can use the Nature House.

Oh! We (the BCGA) have been asked about holding an event in September at the Surrey Nature House. This would be co-sponsored by Surrey Parks and Rec (It won't cost us anything). I will work out dates and details because they want it in the Activity Guide.

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Team K1W1



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 54
Location: New Westminster

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

I came away from the meeting with mixed feelings. I can understand why Surrey Parks thinks it needs to manage geocaching in its parks more closely but I really hope other cities in the lower mainland don’t follow their lead and procedures.

I may be missing something in the big picture of things but I don’t want placing caches to become a two step approval procedure – one being with the parks department and the other with geocaching.com
I think a set of guidelines on suitable placement would be better than a procedure where a person has to take photos of the area and cache placement and email them to a city employee for approval.
Don’t get me wrong I know in this case things could have been a lot worse with what the city initially proposed. But in the two hours we spent at the meeting he was shown that geocachers respect the environment, aren’t the people who dump garbage or litter - rather we clean up after others, we self police our sport etc and they still want to pre-approve cache placement. I don’t think any other users of Surreys parks have to be pre approved to use them. I for one don't want to see Burnaby or New Westminster adopt this procedure.

A couple of concerns as well – in this case we have a decision/procedure maker from the city who has never tried geocaching. I am not sure if he was invited to try it or not, but I sensed while he understood the concept of treasure hunting he needed to have felt the thrill of finding his first geocache to really appreciate geocaching. We all know what that first find feeling is like. This would help immensely in the real appreciation of what geocaching is like. If they brought their children/nieces/nephews along even better.

My other concern is, do we as the BCGA have a set of guidelines we can give to a city parks department if they want to develop their own guidelines?. Something to show them we already self police and that because of this they don’t need to pre-approve our cache placement. In Surrey’s case it seems he created a set of procedures taken from different places on the Internet. Valid points were raised about cache size, a 3 year time frame for placements, staff having to view the cache placement etc. An official BCGA set of guidelines with explanations would help steer the guidelines toward what we want, not what a parks dept think they need.

Also thanks to the BCGA directors and others who have taken the time and energy to meet with parks staff and make this a lot better than it could have been. We all appreciate it.

Sometimes I think I liked the sport more when it was an “underground” activity.
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Glad that the meeting went well and that everyone who was able to make it did so. With the young ones, I figured it would be best not to go, as they get bored easy Beanie

I know that this has come and gone, but I read this post from CB and wanted to comment on it.
Quote::

We only have to be more vocal to our fellow cachers. You see a bad placement email the owner and say so, and politely say in the log. If the problem persists, and logs keep indicating a problem, then remove the cache when you go looking for it. You'll have a lot of previous finders logs to support your decision. PS. Don't log it as a 'Found It' when you remove it, that is hypocritical. If its not a good hide, its not a good find!


I don't feel any cacher has the right to remove any other cacher's cache. I think you are just asking for trouble if you do that. I understand there are concerns and you would be just trying to help, but it isn't up to you to decide how to rectify the situation. If the owner isn't going to listen and move the cache, contact BCGA and find out what should be done, or let them deal with it.

_________________
ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

WOW! I had an great meeting today witht he staff of Urban Forestry. The new procedure will be in my hands tomorrow and I will post it here. It has the changes we asked for. I hope everyone understands that this will take a bit to get going.

Thanks Jangor for already calling about a cache placement.

Our contact Nadia is really interested in Geocaching. I left my "Idoit's guide to Geoacaching" with her. It will be passed around the office. They will all be geocachers soon. It believed it helped that I brought so many different kinds of cache containers, swag, stash notes, TBs and coins. Hearing about something and seeing something are two different things.

Colleen is in charge of the Nature House at Green Timbers. She has gone geocaching before. She will be doing up something for the Summer Rec guide.

I still think we must be more honest with each other in regards to a bad hide. If it is bad we, the community at large should say so. Bad hides are what gets noticed. Not the good ones.

Watch and wait for more.

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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Bestred wrote:


I don't feel any cacher has the right to remove any other cacher's cache. .

I don't think any cacher who places a cache along a riparian area, has a cache that encourage trampling of flora and in the end causes problems for all other cachers by giving the sport a bad rap has any right to leave a plastic container in a bad spot.

Removing a cache is a last resort, not the first thing to be done. If a bad cache remains a problem, it should be removed by whatever means necessary before it becomes a bigger problem.

_________________
~~~~ _CanadianBacon_~~~~
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Tulameen_Turtles



Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Jeff you are awesome, absolutely rock with all the work you're doing.

Hopefully this new policy will work as a standard for other cities as we move forward if they vocalize concerns and they too will show as much flexibility as Surrey has.

It does lead to the question should we approach cities before they approach us or geocache.com? Would it be a good idea to approach them first. I look at the sudden surgance in growth and how the game is evolving and think being pro-active could gain us more ground then the wait and see approach..

I know that Mission likes geocaches, and when we contacted them about ours they were very supportive, and North Van also worked on the art caches..

Thoughts?
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landsharkz



Joined: Sep 28, 2005
Posts: 356
Location: Victoria

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

This is a great idea, and in fact something that your directors are currently working on. In the not too distant future, you will see the BCGA web site become the go-to place for municipal land managers.

We are planning to become a lot more proactive... educating and assisting with policy development (where required) prior to issues arising.

Thanks again Jeff for all your work on this. We all look forward to seeing the latest.
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Team K1W1



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 54
Location: New Westminster

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

landsharkz wrote:


We are planning to become a lot more proactive... educating and assisting with policy development (where required) prior to issues arising.


Does the BCGA have a set of guidelines that we as geocachers would like to see vs what parks departments think they need. If Surreys initial proposed policy went through as they thought they needed, it would have been the beginning of the end of geocaching in Surrey (IMHO)
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landsharkz



Joined: Sep 28, 2005
Posts: 356
Location: Victoria

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

We are working on a that. Essentially, what we promote as a best practice is a policy is that supports geocaching, expects geocachers to respect the parks, does not require an approval process, and if there are issues with an individual geocache, deal with that individual geocache on an as-needed basis.

Usually the issues arise because park managers (or in many cases... community-run park stewardship groups) don't know anything about geocaching, and when they run into it, they over-react. Education is the key here.

We let park managers know that geocaching is. Promote it as a fun, healthy park use activity that should be encouraged in parks. Having BC Parks and Parks Canada on-board is good, because we can say it is supported by the provincial and federal governments. I show managers a variety of good policies and promote a no-policing, no-approval-required approach. If there are areas that they feel should be out-of-bounds, then let us know (BC Parks' ecological reserves for example), and we'll stay out of those areas.

Best thing cachers can do right now is adopt a stream, adopt a highway, Organize CITO's and tell the park authrities what your doing... ask them to provide garbage bags... they'll have a hard time saying "no". Also, join your local "Friends of the park" society and talk-up all the good things geocaching brings to the parks. Do good things and be visible doing it.
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Team K1W1



Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 54
Location: New Westminster

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Tulameen_Turtles wrote:


It does lead to the question should we approach cities before they approach us or geocache.com? Would it be a good idea to approach them first. I look at the sudden surgance in growth and how the game is evolving and think being pro-active could gain us more ground then the wait and see approach..

I have a friend who works for Burnaby City Parks dept. I had an off the record talk with him about geocaching and policies etc. In my opinion it would be a BAD idea to try push policy to Burnaby Parks. It would probably halt geocaching in Burnaby as we know it. Liability issues being the main concern. They know geocaching exists, but if they were to officially adopt it as a park use then for them liability becomes the issue.
For example if they officially approved a cache off a secondary trail and a person was hunting for that cache and slipped and fell hurting themselves the city could be liable for damages.

They have bigger issues they have to deal with on a day to day basis - homeless camps, people dumping garbage, mountain bike structures, trees, Central Park issues etc etc. I don't think we need to try fix something that isn't broken.
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landsharkz



Joined: Sep 28, 2005
Posts: 356
Location: Victoria

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

I totally agree that there is no need to fix something that isn't broken; however if a problem arises and they are not aware of geocaching, then it can result in an over-reatcion. That doesn't mean they need policy. It just means they really should not be ignorant to what is going on in their parks... when you talk about the issues in the parks, we really are not a problem for them, and therefore not worth spending time and resources on.

If a municipality is aware of geocaching, and chooses not to deal with it, then that is a good thing.

In my personal opinion, the best thing for Burnaby... help them become aware of geocaching from the good side. See my previous post Very Happy
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goaliegirl38



Joined: Apr 19, 2008
Posts: 148
Location: Pitt Meadows, Burnaby, or driving in between

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

landsharkz wrote:

If a municipality is aware of geocaching, and chooses not to deal with it, then that is a good thing.

In my personal opinion, the best thing for Burnaby... help them become aware of geocaching from the good side. See my previous post Very Happy

I work for Burnaby, have been on the union executive, and have seen how much of the behind the scenes beauracracy works. My suggestion is leave it alone unless they come to us! (In which case I'd be happy to be the liason!)
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goaliegirl38



Joined: Apr 19, 2008
Posts: 148
Location: Pitt Meadows, Burnaby, or driving in between

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

landsharkz wrote:
In my personal opinion, the best thing for Burnaby... help them become aware of geocaching from the good side. See my previous post Very Happy

Many of the employees are aware of it, in fact I just did a geocaching 101 "Lunch 'N' Learn" on Monday in my workplace.
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

_canadianbacon_ wrote:


I don't think any cacher who places a cache along a riparian area, has a cache that encourage trampling of flora and in the end causes problems for all other cachers by giving the sport a bad rap has any right to leave a plastic container in a bad spot.

Removing a cache is a last resort, not the first thing to be done. If a bad cache remains a problem, it should be removed by whatever means necessary before it becomes a bigger problem.


If we starting taking this as a policy, do you know how many caches would be removed by someone other than the owner?
I agree with what you are saying CB, but you have to understand that even if the cache is an ok cache...if just one or three people out of 50 don't agree with it and they are arrogant enough, the cache will be removed.
There are currently issues right now in the Valley going on about poor cache placements. If certain people could, they would be removing the caches themselves. And really, not everyone agrees that the caches are in poor placement.

'By any means necessary'

BUT not at the hands of another cacher. I strongly believe that no cacher should take it upon themselves to remove ANY cache, last resort or not.

I truly believe if this were to occur, there would be bad 'blood' between a lot of cachers and it would get out of hand. There is no way to 'police' that someone removed a cache because of 'bad placement'....no way at all.
No matter how you word it or state why it would be 'OK', I am in total disagreement with this.

_________________
ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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Catapult Jeff



Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 169
Location: Surrey BC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Dear Jeff,

Thank you for meeting with us on behalf of the BC Geocaching association last week.


On review of the caching activities taking place in Surrey we have determined that a large number of non Surrey Residents are both placing and seeking caches in Surrey parks.

Given the high impact nature of your sport, and the fact that these parks are funded by the city through taxes collected from our residents we feel that all non resident Geocachers will have to pay a license fee to hide and find caches in the City Of Surrey. This will help the city maintain its property from Geocaching related use by what mostly are non residents.


The City of Surrey will be implementing the following Fee Structure:

Cache Seeking: $12/Year

Cache Placement – City Parks: $10/cache.

Cache Placement – City Managed Greenspace: $5/cache

Event Caches on City Property: $50/event + regular rental fees.


These fees will be reviewed on an annual cycle, every April 1st. They may be paid by visiting the city licensing department, Monday to Friday 10:00-12:00PM and 3:00PM to 5:00PM.

Sincerely

April L. Fu., bylaws and licensing.

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plumbrokeacres



Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 172
Location: Prince George BC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

That is a bargain!

Glad to see Surrey is being reasonable in their Fees, They are 50% cheaper than in Prince George.

I just renewed my PG seeking license today. even residents have to pay here maybe we can get you to talk to the local council on our behalf.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Catapult Jeff wrote:
The City of Surrey will be implementing the following Fee Structure:

Cache Seeking: $12/Year

Cache Placement – City Parks: $10/cache.

Cache Placement – City Managed Greenspace: $5/cache

Event Caches on City Property: $50/event + regular rental fees.

Dear April, I hope you are reading these forums.
I suggest a special fee for 'puzzle' caches, perhaps $50 each and retroactive to 2001 or so? Or a variable rate that lowers as you move north from the 49th Parallel?

Best Wishes.. C.B. Twisted Evil

_________________
~~~~ _CanadianBacon_~~~~
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adroit_seeker



Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Surrey's New Geocaching Procedure Reply with quote

Catapult Jeff wrote:
WOW! I had an great meeting today witht he staff of Urban Forestry. The new procedure will be in my hands tomorrow and I will post it here. It has the changes we asked for. I hope everyone understands that this will take a bit to get going.

Watch and wait for more.

This was some time ago, I have not seen any posting of the new procedures yet, however I checked with Surrey parks on one of my cache placements and spent time putting all the information together with photos and explaination of the cache placement and sent it to Nadia (which I received a quick response the next day) was informed that the park that I want to place the cache (in Surrey) is not part of the Surrey Parks and is instead park of the Vancouver Metro GVRD District. So was informed that my cache placement would not need their approval. Which is good how ever both myself and mtn-man did not know this had ended up spending time putting out for approval when it did not need it.

The following notes comes from a document I received from Nadia when I called her and said that geocachers will need to know what the list of parks are that are to be exempt from the Surrey Cache Placement Procedures.

Re: Metro Vancouver Parks/ Ministry of Environment managed parkland The following parks are not managed by the City of Surrey. Geocachers should contact the appropriate agency if they would like to place caches in these parks.
1. Serpentine Wildlife Management Area (Serpentine Fen) - BC Ministry of Environment.
2. Tynehead Regional Park - Metro Vancouver
3. Surrey Bend Regional Park - Metro Vancouver
For more information please see the following websites. Metro Vancouver Regional Parks www.metrovancouver.org...fault.aspx BC Ministry of Environment www.gov.bc.ca/env/ Sincerely,
Nadia Chan, FIT Natural Areas Coordinator Urban Forestry and Environmental Programs Surrey Parks, Recreation & Culture
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