CCBot/2.0 (http://commoncrawl.org/faq/) British Columbia Geocaching Association —» Forums —» Regional —» Lower Mainland / Coast Mountains —» Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines
Home Newest Caches Forums Your Account About BCGA Search Blitz  
Mountain Lion
Mountain Lion:  [?] . The Mountain Lion, also called puma and cougar, are found throughout British Columbia. [M | C
Toggle Content=  Register or Login  Please Join our Association 
topleft topfill topright
Toggle Content Our Sponsors
Landsharkz Coins and Geocaching Gear
Worldcaching.comLandsharkz Coins and Geocaching GearGold CountryCaching Containers
bottomleft bottomfill bottomright
topleft topfill topright
Toggle Content Waypoints
bottomleft bottomfill bottomright
topleft topfill topright
Toggle Content Coming Events
bottomleft bottomfill bottomright
Forums —» Regional —» Lower Mainland / Coast Mountains —» Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines
toplefttopfilltopright
Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines

Go to page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Metro Vancouver Parks are in the process of reviewing their official geocaching guidelines. This review was precipitated by them over a concern about possible over saturation of geocaches in their parks. During this review process the BC reviewers will not publish any new caches in Metro Vancouver Parks. This is a "good faith" measure. Any new caches will need to meet the new guidelines. This has naturally caused great concern within the geocaching community.

At this time there are somewhere between 80-100 geocaches on hold. Most of these are “power trails” – a large series of caches placed along certain trails. Not all these caches are placed on Metro Vancouver controlled trails but the cache owners have requested that the series be published at one time.

The BC reviewers have been working with to Metro Vancouver Parks on the language of the new guidelines. They are acting as the protagonists for the geocaching community in this situation. They had expected that this review would be completed within a week or two at the most. Metro Vancouver Parks additionally contacted several geocachers to get their opinions about geocaches in their parks.

I don’t think there is a single geocacher in the Lower Mainland who does not appreciate the Metro Vancouver Parks system. Most cachers are aware that these are areas protected for our enjoyment and for the enjoyment of future generations. We are careful to respect these areas and to tread lightly.

The changes to the guidelines proposed are in relation to proximity of caches, cache sizes, and the need for detailed hints, designed to help people find caches with minimal searching to avoid damage to the surrounding areas. As far as I am aware, at this time no existing geocaches will be required to meet the new guidelines.

The job of the reviewers is to publish caches. This is what they love to do. They are also required to approve caches that not only meet official Groundspeak guidelines but also any guidelines that local land managers may have.

There has been a huge amount of speculation and misinformation surrounding this entire process. People are making incorrect assumptions and are spreading these as truths. This is incredibly divisive and damaging and has prolonged the review process. This has only served to represent geocaching in a bad light. We need to demonstrate that we are a community of responsible adults who truly care about how and where we place our caches. We need to demonstrate that we have the upmost concern for the environment and reducing our footprint on the landscape.

Please let the reviewers work through this process with Metro Vancouver Parks. Both sides have more than enough information to be able to come up with guidelines that will best meet the needs of both parties. We must remember that Metro Vancouver Parks as the land managers have the final say about what goes on in their parks. We will be required to make compromises.

Please DO NOT become involved in this matter by contacting Metro Vancouver Parks, the reviewers, or Groundspeak. It will serve no useful purpose.
Back to top
CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

After all that work we did for/with them last year. No way man I'm definitely getting involved cause I know I can spearhead this situation and besides I've got something to prove dangit!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Meh never mind I've got better things to do lol. There's Geocaches in them there hills to find!
Back to top
Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

HI all:

I am caught up in this policy change as well. I am not happy and expressed my concerns via email to Kathy.

I along with two other cachers placed 21 caches in about 11 km and has been classified as power trail. This would place a cache approx. every 500 m and this is classified as a power trail? Under the current rules one could place 4 caches in 500 m. There is no definition in Groundspeak for power trail. If we follow Groundspeak guidelines one could place 70+ caches in the 11 km we are placing 21. Now this would be a power trail.

My concern becomes when we allow reviewers to make policy. That is not their job, the job of a reviewer is to look at rules of Groundspeak and those would include local caching policy to see if a cache meets those requirements.
In the placement of the caches I have pending it was suggested that I get a letter/email of approval from the Parks Department of where I want to place the caches. This parks department does not have a policy nor do they plan on bringing one in in the near future. I have done some work with this Parks Manager and thus have an idea of what is going on and what they would like to see when it comes to geocaching.
I have declined to get this email because I don’t want to set a precedent here where the next cacher has to do the same thing.

I don’t have to go far back and look at how the reviewers interpreted the highways ban of 18 months ago. There was a ban of 50 m from ANY road to place a cache. That meant that no cache could be placed in the greater Vancouver area if this were the case, to broaden this out it would mean no cache in and built up area of BC. In effect it killed caching. Groundspeak had no idea of what 50 m was as they do not deal in metric.
This was why I got involved with the highways issue that later included Parks.

I was asked by Groundspeak to let sleeping dogs lie and stay out of it. I had an answer within 4 days of contacting my MLA. Today we have that original letter rescinded and the Groundspeak placement policy back in place.

Now all of us are being asked to stay out of this. I am sorry but that is the last thing we should do. I do plan on writing my City rep to Metro parks and expressing my concerns on this. This is a fundamental right in our society.

While doing some research last week I had a bombshell dropped on me. Sumas Mountain Regional Park as of May 2012 is part of Metro parks under a joint agreement. Matsqui Trail system is also part of Metro Parks. There is also mention of part of Sumas Mountain becoming a Provincial Park at some point. I could not find an exact boundary map for Sumas Mountain Regional Park. There are two maps I have found and all I can say they are vastly different.

Understand this, I learned that different jurisdictions look at each other to forum policy. I learned this during the recent BC Parks/Highways talks. If these talks do not go as planned and we end up with a policy that is totally unworkable it could set policy for other places in Canada or the USA. I don’t think we want to be known as the City that screwed up caching because we didn’t do something as individuals'.

The next Metro Parks Committee meeting has been cancelled and the next Board meeting is slated for March 15th 2013. I don’t think the board will make a decision till they have a report from the Parks Committee. So the next Parks Committee meeting is April 11th 2013 with the board meeting the following day on April 12th 2013.

We appear to have about 6 weeks to deal with this.

Thank you

Phil
Back to top
scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Hmmmm. This happened a bit when I was a member of the BCGA board of directors. People who thought they were helping ended up sabotaging talks with park boards. Luckily, we were able to bring several projects in conjunction with park boards to a successful conclusion despite the interference.

We can't say that the geocachers in BC aren't passionate. And I learned that first hand.

We geocachers in BC elect people to act on our behalf and geocaching.com hires volunteer reviewers to act on everyone's behalf. These are the people I trust most with the future of geocaching. So, I am very concerned when I see individuals who were not invited to partake in talks stick their nose where it doesn't belong. Any development of future policies should be left to the people who were elected and/or hired.

No good can come out of it when Joe Geocacher starts acting unilaterally. It just confounds the process. When individuals in the geocaching community bombard a parks board with phone calls and emails, the parks board begins to feel harassed. This is the last thing the geocaching community needs right now. It's never a good idea to poke the bear.

There's a lot of misinformation out there. And it's unfair to condemn the people working on the project without knowing what is really happening.

I implore anyone not directly involved nor asked to partake in the talks with Metro Vancouver Parks to please stay out of it. We don't need people who think they're a White Knight getting involved. Unfortunately, there have been a few "white knights" - most of whom have not painted a good picture of the geocaching community to MVP. In reality, they're not helping, but rather, sabotaging the process.

Please leave the politics for the people elected to do it and just go caching.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I work for Metro Vancouver Parks, in a paid capacity, teaching geocaching in their parks. I was asked my opinions on powertrails and my recommendations for policies around them.

I gave my opinions to the relevant people at Metro Vancouver Parks and had productive conversations with them. Then I met with BCGA President Kathy Costello and asked her to take up the matter from there. The BCGA is acting on behalf of the geocaching community and as such, I believe they are best placed to be our voice.

Metro Vancouver Parks wants geocaching in their parks (or else I would not have that job) but, they have to weigh that with preserving the park from potential damage. We have no right to demand they do things our way, at all. In fact, as the managers of the land, we must obey their rules. I just hope they are not so frustrated by the demands of people taking matters in their own hands that they impose punitive rules on all of us.

Incidentally, I have a single cache that cannot be published at this time as it is in a Metro Vancouver Park. It is frustrating to me too.
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I can only repeat what Scruffster has said, let the reviewers and the parks people work this out. I emailed some individual cachers who have caches on hold directly with a request for them to not interfere in these somewhat delicate negotiations. I suspect they may have regardless.

There is nothing individual geocachers can add to the information that the reviewers and the parks people have already. This will only prolong the process.
Back to top
Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

katcogo wrote:
I can only repeat what Scruffster has said, let the reviewers and the parks people work this out. I emailed some individual cachers who have caches on hold directly with a request for them to not interfere in these somewhat delicate negotiations. I suspect they may have regardless.

There is nothing individual geocachers can add to the information that the reviewers and the parks people have already. This will only prolong the process.

What most do not understand there are ways to deal with these things I have learned. When and if I talk to my Rep on the board it will be to educate this board member on geocaching nothing more nothing less. The more we educate these people and show them why it is important than maybe those that have a negative view could have their minds changed.

I have had great success with this and not saying it will continue but hope it will.

I just want my member to be fully aware of the pros and cons. With the number of board members it is tough to educate them all in a 5 minute delegation before the board.

The process has already been delayed by 6 weeks with cancelled meetings. If the board asks for more info then we are into May/June. I can say now that this isn't going to be quick.

My record speaks for itself. I did nothing to put poor light on geocaching for BC Parks/Highways. That will continue when I discuss it with any official.

Phil
Back to top
Philatsea



Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

scruffster wrote:
Hmmmm.

No good can come out of it when Joe Geocacher starts acting unilaterally. It just confounds the process. When individuals in the geocaching community bombard a parks board with phone calls and emails, the parks board begins to feel harassed. This is the last thing the geocaching community needs right now. It's never a good idea to poke the bear.

Sorry I have to disagree with you on this one.

If I had not got involved and let sleeping dogs lie as Groundspeak wanted we would still likely have a ban on caching in the Quesnel Highways District.

There was also the 50 m rule that was brought in and yet no one understood what it did to caching. If I left this alone I have no doubt that we would have had a different outcome.

Phil
Back to top
MrGigabyte



Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

scruffster wrote:
Hmmmm. geocaching.com hires volunteer reviewers to act on everyone's behalf. These are the people I trust most with the future of geocaching. .

Excuse me, but who exactly did geocaching.com hire to speak on my behalf and where exactly did they assume that right?
Back to top
CAMOKELLY



Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 482
Location: Abbotsford BC

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I sort of agree with Mr G on his point. Geocaching.com might not have the right to speak on our behalf but this Geocaching game is their creation and they do have the right to take their game away from us if they so choose. I think the poking the Bear thing has some validity. If Groundspeak is asking us to stay out of their negotiations with Metro Vancouver Parks and we choose to ignore them and take matters into our own hands we will have to live with that decision whether good or bad. We might as individuals feel its our right to have our voice heard but we also need to understand that in doing so thus poking that bear one to many times just might result in negative consequences to our actions. I for one hope the Bear isn't easily angered.
Back to top
scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Hey Mr. G.

This is in response to "Excuse me, but who exactly did geocaching.com hire to speak on my behalf and where exactly did they assume that right?"

Perhaps it would be better to say that the people groundspeak hire as volunteer reviewers are the best suited liaisons for the job. It is my understanding that reviewers go through a very rigorous geo-background check. There is a large geocaching community and geocaching.com wants the best working for them [EDIT}

I've had the pleasure to talk to many reviewers over the years, both in person and online. I've learned a lot about the process. You were a reviewer once and probably know best that the job goes beyond approving caches. [EDIT}

Geocaching isn't underground anymore and land managers have become a major participant in the overall scheme of things. I learned that quickly during my time with the BCGA. It's my guess that reviewers know the guidelines best. After all, they deal with them every day. A major part of that is knowing the land manager's wishes. When push comes to shove, the reviewers are the central control system of the province. They know what is going on. The average geocacher does not see the big picture as a reviewer sees it. And what the average geocacher thinks he or she knows is usually based on third hand information, rumours and gossip. The rumours I've heard floating around, and by people who should know better, is downright laughable. This is not a way to conduct business -- especially when dealing with the government and park boards.

[EDIT}This is not a game and it shouldn't be reduced to a pissing contest. It is in everyone's best interest to simply let the people who know their job do it in peace. I really don't think that is too much to ask.

[EDIT}Remember that when you signed up for an account at groundspeak, you agreed to the terms and conditions. You agree to the terms and conditions every time you submit a geocache to be published on geocaching.com. Of course you can say that Groundspeak has no right to speak for you. And you are right. You can hide a cache anywhere you want. You can hide a cache directly on the Lion's Gate Bridge if you like. You just can't have it published on geocaching.com.
Back to top
grafinator



Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Coruscant

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I am curious if the fact that BC Parks has a new official geocaching policy has had any postive impacts on this topic.

Seriously how long should it take to come up with a revised geocaching policy? An hour sounds about right to me.

_________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing. - Darth Vader
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Sorry to break this to you Graf but the BC Parks policy took many months to work out, and that was a simple (to us) fix.
Back to top
grafinator



Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Coruscant

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Sometimes I forget government departments don't work at a normal pace.
Oh well, they have to spend that tax payer money somehow.

_________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing. - Darth Vader
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

The new Metro Vancouver Guidelines for cache placements may be found HERE

The reviewers have asked for some clarifications but these are essentially the guidelines effective April 1, 2013. Any caches placed before this time are considered grandfathered as long as the cache is being actively maintained.

Many thanks to Metro Vancouver Parks staff for listening to sometimes passionate feedback from geocachers to try to work out the best compromise between geocachers and their park operators.

A huge thanks also goes to the reviewers who took a lot of flak from a number of geocachers who were frustrated that their caches were put on hold for up to 8 weeks while the new guidelines were being worked out. The reviewers worked directly with Metro Vancouver Parks as advocates for the geocaching community.

At the end of the day Metro Vancouver Parks and geocachers have the same objectives - we love the parks and accept our respective roles to ensure they are maintained in a manner that is sustainable over the long term.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I have noticed recently caches published on MVP land that are much closer than 500m apart. Does this mean these MVP rules are no longer in effect? Because that would be awesome.
Back to top
Highlander 71



Joined: Apr 17, 2011
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
I have noticed recently caches published on MVP land that are much closer than 500m apart. Does this mean these MVP rules are no longer in effect? Because that would be awesome.

Would I be correct in guessing that you might be referring to the recent Brunette River caches? If that's the case then the simplest reason I can think of is that because this is a greenway and not a MV Park, it does not fall under their jurisdiction.

Here's a quote from their web page re: greenways.
Quote::
Metro Vancouver, municipalities and community groups are working together to create this regional greenway network.

The part I underlined is likely what prevents the greenways from being considered sole MVP responsibility and they are therefore out from under their guidelines.

If this is the case, it will help us in determining which guidelines are in effect. I just hope we don't suddenly see a bunch of new power trails spring up along every greenway.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Policy specifies greenways, highlander_71: www.metrovancouver.org...Policy.pdf
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Sadly the policy is even worse than we thought. The reviewer has denied my most recent cache because it is ACROSS THE ROAD from a Metro Vancouver Park. It is on a beach in Vancouver (Spanish Banks) and is "near" to Pacific Spirit Park. It is not closer than 162m to another cache, but it is within 500m.

This blows my mind.
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I would suggest you seek clarification from a senior reviewer for your cache. MV Parks guidelines should only apply to their land, not City of Vancouver land. As for the Greenway, the reviewers may be unaware that is under MV Parks control.
Back to top
The-A-Team



Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
Sadly the policy is even worse than we thought. The reviewer has denied my most recent cache because it is ACROSS THE ROAD from a Metro Vancouver Park. It is on a beach in Vancouver (Spanish Banks) and is "near" to Pacific Spirit Park. It is not closer than 162m to another cache, but it is within 500m.

This blows my mind.
That definitely sounds like an incorrect application of the policy. If you make a good case to appeals @ geocaching.com, I think you'd have a good chance of having the reviewer's decision overturned. Refer to the park map showing that your hiding spot isn't in the park and the part of the policy that says "This policy applies to all MV Regional parks and greenways", and you should be able to prove that the policy doesn't apply to your spot.

Actually, when I just looked more closely at the Pacific Spirit Park map, Spanish Bank Beach is identified as falling under Vancouver Parks. Maybe the reviewer misinterpreted that as being the same as MV, which it certainly isn't.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Hi A-Team, I already tried that. Nope, it didn't work.

One person can ignore the rules, another person cannot. Recently I wanted to place a cache in a park that was 50 m away from the back corner of a school and it was denied. The following week a cache was published on school grounds. The argument they gave me about "safety for kids" seems to be very fluid depending on who owns the cache.

I am sure they are taking a perverse delight in applying these rules in a way they could not have ever been intended. Otherwise - why are they doing this and not listening to reason?
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Specifically this was why it was requested as posted on my cache:
Hello Cuddlefish,

The Metro Vancouver Parks Geocaching Policy www.metrovancouver.org...Policy.pdf specifies a 500m proximity around caches published in MVP parks.

The four BC Reviewers have consistently applied the principle that caches must not be in the specified 500m boundary even if the new caches are not in the parks. This is to avoid any risk of the land manager requesting the archival of the already published caches in the parks because we as geocachers have published caches too close in violation of the stated geocaching policy. As you may remember, the introduction of the Metro Vancouver Parks Geocaching Policy caused quite an issue, and we have to work hard to avoid stirring up further restrictions to geocaching in these spaces. In that light the broadest interpretation of the policy has been applied.

All four BC reviewers have declined caches due to proximity issues with known MVP areas similar to this listing. To remain consistent and to respect the broadest interpretation of the land managers wishes, I will disable this listing too.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Guess I will try to contact Metro Vancouver Parks then and sort this out. If anyone else wants to also do the same, thank you. I am finding this so frustrating.
Back to top
The-A-Team



Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
Guess I will try to contact Metro Vancouver Parks then and sort this out. If anyone else wants to also do the same, thank you. I am finding this so frustrating.
It might be a good idea to have the BCGA talk to MV Parks, since that's their whole reason for being. It's my understanding that the current policy is the result of a vigilante, free-for-all situation where lots of different people were contacting MV Parks. That kind of situation should be avoided if at all possible. We don't want to irritate any land managers to the point that they ban caching entirely.

The reviewers seem to be artificially expanding the policy beyond what's written, so I think it would be best if the BCGA work with the reviewers and MV Parks to clarify the policy.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

The BCGA is welcome to step in at ANY TIME and sort this mess out.
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

The BCGA will not and should not interfere with a specific reviewer and a specific cache but this seems to be a broader issue. I will look into this further. The Metro Vancouver Parks guidelines have just been amended to clarify the placement of Earthcaches (not yet updated), perhaps a further clarification is in order.
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I have been in contact with the senior reviewer for BC and she outlined some of the issues they have been dealing with. I am more than satisfied with the response and very happy that there is ongoing communication between the reviewers and Metro Vancouver Parks.
Back to top
scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I recently had to move a cache for my upcoming series in North Burnaby due to a proximity conflict along a newly adopted MVP greenway. Thankfully, the reviewers let me know as soon as they were alerted that my cache was indeed on MVP property. No harm, no foul. It took me the better part of two days to recalibrate the puzzle for a new location but we all have to abide by the land owner's wishes.

Thanks for talking to the senior reviewer, Katcogo. It's often the case we get one side of the story from a disgruntled geocacher without any news from the reviewer. It's been my experience that reviewers aren't on a power trip and they don't arbitrarily disallow caches. One or two of my cache submissions have been disallowed over the years. Reviewers have to take a look at the big picture and decide on a cache by cache basis whether an individual cache should be published. I have no doubt they have the future of the geocaching community at heart when they disallow certain placements. Nobody's cache placement, including mine, is so important that it should cause an uproar in the community or initiate a phone in campaign to the land owners. No good can come out of such actions.
Back to top
Highlander 71



Joined: Apr 17, 2011
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Reviewers are cachers, too, and I have never sensed that they particularly enjoy having to deny a cache placement. In fact, in my experience they will usually offer some constructive alternatives if you ask nicely!
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Clearly something is broken. I just got this email:

Hello Jacqueline,

Thank you for contacting Geocaching HQ. The BC review team has been upholding a standard minimum distance of 500m minimum distance around every cache placement inside the boundaries of a Metro Vancouver Park. They are doing this to support the relationship between MVP and geocaching, and are applying it equally to all new geocache placements in or near MVP property. We support their decision and will not grant an exception for this cache placement. Our guidelines include this guidance: At times a geocache may meet the requirements for publication on the site but the reviewers, as experienced geocachers, may see additional concerns not listed in these guidelines that you as a geocache placer may not have noticed. If you relocate your cache at least 500 m from the caches inside the park, we can reconsider your cache.
-----------------------------------------------

Fortunately Metro Vancouver Parks have been very understanding. I will pursue this. A number of us have been in touch as this seems to be a common issue.
Back to top
KnL_Caching



Joined: Dec 15, 2011
Posts: 20
Location: Richmond, B.C.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Cuddlefish wrote:
Clearly something is broken.

I will pursue this.

I am not sure what there is left to pursue?

- The reviewers said no.
- The BCGA looked into it - Kathy is satisfied with the response and is happy that there is ongoing communication between the reviewers and MVP. (This sounds at the very least like MVP has no objections to this principle)
- Geocaching HQ looked at it and also said no.

The parties (MVP, reviewers, BCGA and Geocaching HQ) all sound like they are on the same page.

Perhaps its time to let it go?
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Metro Vancouver Parks told me DIRECTLY that they are not concerned about the caches outside their parks. Appeals refuse to listen to reason and claim they are doing this out of concern for an organisation who is not even concerned in the first place.

I really need some help here, it is maddening. But I will not give up until it makes sense.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Just saw your reply Kevin. Actually MVP are not in agreement here. They aren't sure why they are being blamed for preventing geocaches being placed outside their boundaries. They are pro geocaching and this is painting them in a very negative light.

I'm afraid I agree with them.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

scruffster wrote:
I recently had to move a cache for my upcoming series in North Burnaby due to a proximity conflict along a newly adopted MVP greenway. Thankfully, the reviewers let me know as soon as they were alerted that my cache was indeed on MVP property. No harm, no foul. It took me the better part of two days to recalibrate the puzzle for a new location but we all have to abide by the land owner's wishes.

I agree. And executives from the BCGA found the caches along this greenway that were in violation and did not alert the reviewers. Shouldn't this be a two way street? If we see something that we know or suspect to be against the land owner's wishes, shouldn't we alert the reviewers and not ignore it? (Indeed that was the reason I thought the policy could had been changed, because people who knew the policy found the caches.)

I know that Metro Vancouver Parks wants a good relationship with geocachers. That was part of my mandate when teaching geocaching for Metro Vancouver Parks. I am familiar with their policy (even though I think 500m is too arbitrary and far). I don't think it is right to ignore violations. But I also don't think it is right to ascribe to their policy that which they did not intend when we made the rules.

The fact remains that MVP wants the reviewers to respect the 500m rule within the park (and geocachers including the BCGA members and execs who are familiar with this policy), but they do not think it should be a concern for anything outside the park. Not sure why I am the only one wanting this sorted out.

I got involved by trying to find a geocache for another cacher! I don't even have another cache to place any time soon. And yet here I am... Grrrrr!
Back to top
scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I am not comfortable with anyone in the geocaching community taking matters into their own hands -- especially when it comes to dealing with the government or park boards. Whatever happens, I ask that everyone involved choose their next move carefully. Some people may see it as a David and Goliath battle while others may see it as stirring the pot.

I've seen situations like this on several occasions during my 9 years as a geocacher and on every occasion it has ended badly.

So, what is more important -- keeping the peace or being right? Every time someone chose the latter they have either been banned by geocaching.com or have been the protagonist in a very public train wreck. Nothing positive can be accomplished when the reviewers and the folks at HQ are on the same page. At this point there is no room to climb but a lot of room to fall. I could start singing a Kenny Rogers song right now but I will just offer the same advice as I've given in the past. If you enjoy geocaching, in these situations it's best to acknowledge the status quo, lick your wounds, and move on.
Back to top
Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

I have been told by a concerned party that I made a bad assumption about the caches that the BCGA executive found. I apologise for that. It was not my intention to suggest that they would willingly jeopardise a good relationship.

It is my understanding now that no one knew these caches were on Metro Vancouver Parks land at the time the caches were published and found. I apologise for suggesting that anyone from the BCGA knew this in conjunction with finding these caches.

I should mention that I too found all the caches in this series and really enjoyed them. I think it is such a shame that this happened as the CO had put a lot of effort into them.
Back to top
katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

Reading the email from Groundspeak there is no intent to establish a 500M buffer zone around the perimeter of every Metro Vancouver Park or greenway. The intention is only to ensure that caches outside of a park are 500M from any cache inside the park. There are VERY few situations where this is a problem.
Back to top
The-A-Team



Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

katcogo wrote:
Reading the email from Groundspeak there is no intent to establish a 500M buffer zone around the perimeter of every Metro Vancouver Park or greenway. The intention is only to ensure that caches outside of a park are 500M from any cache inside the park. There are VERY few situations where this is a problem.
Be that as it may, it still isn't what the policy says, nor does it make any sense. Caches outside of the parks have no effect on the parks themselves. In fact, if caches were allowed just outside the parks, it would actually help limit the number of caches within the parks.

Also, the cryptic comment about being "satisfied with the response" just raises more questions in my mind. What was the response? Are the reviewers and/or HQ actively discussing this matter with MVP? Have the reviewers and/or HQ said they don't care what the policy says, they're making their own policy?

I guess I should just be thankful I don't have to deal with such problems over here on the island. We have a few areas completely off-limits, but otherwise we don't have any restrictive policies like the one in question.
Back to top
scruffster



Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Metro Vancouver Parks Guidelines Reply with quote

At this point, Metro Vancouver Parks are full. Almost all of them have an existing power trail placed before the tighter restrictions -- and in part, the reason for tighter restrictions. Total saturation. Those caches were grandfathered. So the argument about less caches in the parks doesn't wash. It's a question of the perimeter of the parks. I have been told that there are many cases where geocachers walk through the park, often off trail (against the MVP guidelines) in order to get the "perimiter" caches. Totally not cool.

It's been my experience that tighter restrictions, regardless who implements them, is always the result of geocachers behaving badly beforehand.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index —» Lower Mainland / Coast Mountains
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


bottomleftbottomright
topleft topfill topright
Advertisement
bottomleft bottomfill bottomright

:: Copyright 2003 - 2009 BC Geocaching Association ::

RSS Feed:
Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/BCGeocaching
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy
Theme by British Columbia Geocaching Association.