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The Archive stage of a Caching Career
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Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

A long time ago we truly enjoyed placing caches. Maintaining them was not an effort at all until recently.
Cache Maintenance has now taken on a whole new and time consuming meaning. Are Muggles being more destructive? Are Cachers less respectful of a hide? Truthfully I have no idea and am not about to point any fingers of blame.

In the last few months we have Archived 3 caches. The first was due to its disappearance but there were other nasty issues with that cache's location. The second cache was repeatedly left exposed. Same with the third cache. Caches 1 & 2 were in high traffic and muggle locations but the 3rd was not. Properly re-hiding cache #3 should have ensured its longevity but at 6 years old it did have a very good run.

Can you see a book coming....My Big Fat Caching Career? lol

To be fair, aging does play a big role in our caching and cache placement/maintenance these days. We are far more selective in where we go to cache as well as where we place caches.

Getting back to the topic. Now, when one of our caches goes missing or has been trashed, we Archive it immediately with no other thought required. Others can then place caches there and we wish them the very best of luck!
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Joined: Jan 20, 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Campbell River

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

I have approx 100 caches out there that are active. Now when I place a cache I am much more selective than I used to be. And when I get a maintenance note or several DNF's on a cache I take into consideration as to where the cache hide is as well as how long it has been there, is it worth it to replace etc. Lots of factors involved..
In fact I just replaced two caches due to their location. One I moved 67 metres away in order to keep the muggle factor low and the other was a BC Parks 100 that I felt was worthy of maintaining at least a while longer.
I just archived one cache due to the fact that the area is completely saturated and I felt that maintaining a cache in that area was not in the best interest of the trail system. Another factor may be wet log problems with the cache and the distance required to travel to replace the log.
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Rocky Banks

Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 20
Location: North Vancouver

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

I must admit I am getting pretty disappointed in the "disappearance" of several of my Tracking Bugs that have traveled to various parts of the world only to go missing (some I know for a fact are in the hands of cachers who do not reply to my e-mails and seem to have retired from caching). Today I checked on one of my themed caches only to find the special cache container it took me several months to find was removed from the cache and replaced by a lighter and a tube of toothpaste! I doubt if I will bother to send out any more TB's and will seriously consider placing any new caches. Its a shame, really.
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Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Very sad news. Rest assured that this is not just a North American issue, I talk frequently with my sister who caches in England about this very same topic. We no longer buy geocoins because they just disappear, so the only trackables we release are cheap souvenirs. I think the advent of iPhone caching has totally changed the game. I know families who geocache and the kids will use the iPhone while the parents use the gps. All fun, but what if the kid then shows his friend how to do it or where the cache is by the playground, and that friend shows his friend? About the only protection we have is Premium caches, but that doesn't solve reckless rehiding.

Some caches are just placed in ridiculous locations. This morning I just walked across the street to a cache that was placed near my back door. A film container tucked into a squirrel hole at the base of the tree across the street from a 3 story apartment building, adjacent to a water park and 10m from a picnic table. Not very creative and the caches in the park have been muggled a dozen times. Yeah, it's gone.

As for replacing containers or wet logs, I think we need to pitch in and help out those hiders because if it weren't for them there wouldn't BE any caches. Plus, it's good caching karma.

That's my rant.
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Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Rocky Banks wrote:
I must admit I am getting pretty disappointed in the "disappearance" of several of my Tracking Bugs that have traveled to various parts of the world only to go missing (some I know for a fact are in the hands of cachers who do not reply to my e-mails and seem to have retired from caching).
I've experienced this too, and I'm sure many others have as well. For this reason, I'm never going to be releasing any more geocoins. I'll probably still release the occasional TB, but with the full expectation that it will most likely go missing after a disappointingly short amount of time. Of my 7 released trackables, one coin was in a cache when it was muggled, one TB (at the start of a race) disappeared without a trace from a cache, and another TB is being held hostage by a cacher that seems to have stopped caching. At least my trackables that have made it to Germany get logged properly and frequently! Aww man! I just checked as I was typing this, and one of my TBs with over 30000 km was in a cache that sounds like it's been muggled. That one was doing really well, too. Crying or Very sad

Missing trackables is an extremely widespread problem. Late last year when I was trying to find some TBs for the bingo, I discovered more than 80% of the trackables listed in local caches weren't actually there. Some had been muggled, but the vast majority of them were incorrectly logged, never to be seen again.

Everyone needs to keep the following in mind when picking up or dropping off a trackable:
1. Log it! If you picked it up, log that. If you dropped it off, log that. If it doesn't get logged, the odds of it getting lost are extremely high.
2. Don't drop trackables in a muggle-heavy area, or an area where the likelihood of a cache being muggled is elevated. Drop them in more out-of-the-way caches where the chance of the cache being muggled is reduced. The only exception should be if the trackable's mission requires it to be in such a cache.
3. Check the trackable's mission. If you can't move it towards its goal, don't move it.
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Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lower Mainland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Kinda gone off -topic with TB/Coin stuff but not really since it's about respect. A couple of things I've learned with caching becoming so mainstream and 'anyone' doing it whether once or twice or longer:
1) have a (strongly reinforced around the chain holes) laminated statement stating that the item 'is NOT swag but A TRAVELLER and has an owner' thus is NOT to be kept. That it can be put on one's 'Watch' list and thus stay part of it vicariously. It is not traded for because it's not swag.
2) have the traveller's Mission Statement attached since it's needed info.
3) Since this is where they stand the best chance of going missing I add: **PLEASE DO NOT PLACE AT**EVENTS on a table or REMOTE CACHES"
4) to use photo's or inexpensive items one won't mourn losing
5) you might want to use a better, stronger chain than the one TB tags come with.
6) have it in a baggie.

Groundspeak has a TB longevity thread that has become huge. It has great ideas for how to prolong your traveller's life both the physicallity of it and to educate those who would take it out of a cache.

A few years ago I thought of a way to replace a lost traveller and keep my 'Copy' tag doing this:
Accepted practice is to use the copy tag, but then you are left with nothing ever again for a remedy.
- photocopied the tag (was pleased with how well the numbers stood out) front and back. Black out the word "copy" if needed.
- took a plastic milk jug and cut out the shape of the metal tag to use it as a stiffener
- Glued the two photocopied sides to the plastic, laminated it, leaving a good 1/4 to 1/2 inch edge to prevent splitting over time. Maybe run it thru twice depending on thickness to ensure a strong lamination.
- Cut the corners to "round" as sharp corners wear out faster and put too much strain on the laminate.
After punching the hole for the chain, grommet the hole so it is strong.
Voila. I had a new tag and keep my copy tag. I've done this with 3 and they have held up well.

Be kind to travellers as if they are your own: put it in a new baggie along with a sturdy note regarding it's Mission (if it doesn't have one already attached), clean it up, don't force it into a cache possibly damaging it.

Life's greatest treasure is its uncertainty. (Japanese proverb) Life's greatest annoyance is assumptions.
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Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 544
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

This thread has some very sad stories about people becoming disillusioned with caching. We need hiders to hide the great and creative caches we all love to find. We need to pick up a TB or a coin in a cache to find out it has travelled 70,000 km before it has landed in our hands. These are what keeps us going between film canisters in silly places or what not.

I haven't had too many caches muggled by people - they have been muggled by the Fraser River, or by some odd furry animal that snatched it out of the hands of someone as they were rehiding it. I've lost TBs - some special ones at that. I have a TB that has been kidnapped by a pirate who when I sent him an email freely admitted he had it and intended to keep it. I've also had a trackable go missing only to show up at an event I was hosting a year later. One of my trackables went missing on an island off the coast of Mumbai, pretty cool.

Yes, I am frustrated that geocaching has become a casual game to people who don't even realize you need to either sign the log or log it online. I don't know how to reach out to those people to tell them about the basic as well as the finer points of the game. However, good cachers are made, they don't always start that way.

I guess I am an eternal optimist, I believe in the basic good nature of people. Yes, every once in awhile I get knocked down, but every once in awhile something happens to make it all worthwhile.

So, please, please don't give up!
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Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Give up caching katcogo?? Never!!! Of all the different hobbies, sports, games, etc., Geocachers have among their ranks some of the most tenacious individuals on this entire planet. They will swallow their frustration, adjust some goals yet giving up is never an option.

In the replies to this topic, folks have mostly expressed disappointment about missing Trackables. Most of ours have disappeared into Geospace as well.
We have never released our favorite Geocoins for that very reason and any trackables that we do find are given the utmost respect. Most cachers we know do the same.

There are so many other issues with Geocaching these days. Caches placed in inappropriate places tend to go missing quickly or the Reviewer simply Archives them. Annoying, but end of problem.

Cache Rehiding Etiquette needs a BIG boost though. I'm seeing a 'got my smiley, let's go' mind set. Never mind that the cache is left exposed.
Swag....ohhh, don't get me started! In a recently Archived cache I found Rolling Papers. Have never found those as a trade item before but that could explain the lousy rehide. LOL.

This topic's replies have given some excellent tips for keeping trackables safe. Thanks for those everyone! Swag could use the same care and consideration. Put all swag into a zip lock bag.

There are many, many excellent cashers out there who are wonderful mentors and ably assist new cachers. The BCGA can continue to do its part by keeping the issues in the forefront through the Newsletter and at Events. Repetition works...eventually!

We won't be giving up any time soon and applaud everyone else doing the same!!
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Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

When I started geocaching in 2004 I was told point blank that I should expect "wandering cache syndrome" when I placed my first hide. I was also told to expect depleting swag, muggles taking the cache, and a bit of environmental damage. Back then I was lucky if I had 30 geocachers visit my hides in the first year. Now it takes no time at all to receive that many visits. So, if the problem seems worse it could be simply due to the fact that geocaching has become very popular.

I deciphered long ago that it takes about ten visits to deplete the swag. It takes about the same amount of visits to find the first signs of environmental damage. I always visit my caches on random days after they're first published just to make sure the first 20 or so finders get the same experience. After that, maintenance happens when needed.

Since it was my first regular sized cache in a while, I placed some great swag in Bubblin' Crude II including some antique coins, new toys, and some practical geocaching items. Everything was gone within 8 visits. Right now there is a tacky picture frame (the only bad swag I put in for filler) and an empty tic tac container. **lol** Actually I took that out when I visited. There were one or two other plastic things I didn't bother to look at closely but it wasn't the 30+ dollars I put in. Still, this is nothing new. It just happens faster than it once did. The only major difference I see is people no longer log what they took or placed. At least in 2004 most people were honest about it.

We can get frustrated or resign ourselves to the fact that trading even or up will never truly happen. It was a pipe dream in 2004 and it is a pipe dream now. And if we couldn't control swag depletion in 2004 there is no chance of doing it now. Still, it doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best to put in what we can afford. The same goes with "wandering cache syndrome" We can preach the virtues of geocaching until we're blue in the face but there will always be that one in ten who do not care.

Another cache I recently placed is "Tickets Please II" Since there is a bit of a terrain challenge to this cache I went back to see if everything was OK. The terrain rating was in place because the only environmentally friendly way to get to the cache was to cross a huge fallen branch from the trail (carved flat by mountain bikers) to the crotch of the tree. I went back after the first four hiders and was relieved to find that everything was OK. Thank you to the first four finders, BTW. I went back after 15 finds only to find that people not only took an easier route, they stripped the moss off the north side of a beautiful ancient tree, dislodged the ferns, and broke several branches of the bushes underneath. This disappointed me more than anything. But I blame myself just as much as anyone. After all, I dangled a smiley in front of geocachers well knowing that some geocachers will get a smiley at any cost.

I guess what I'm trying to say is when we place caches we should expect that there will eventually be someone that comes along who doesn't care. We can plan for that.

I may be archiving some of my caches for another reason. The trails that once took people to the caches 5 or more years ago have totally overgrown. I recently went to do general maintenance on Toon Toons and gasped at what I have been putting people through. I can only imagine what that trail leading to an ammo can half way up Burnaby Mountain is like. There were trails there once. Honest! But this might be a good thing. It shows that nature does recover after geocaching activity -- so much that the caches are no longer easily accessible.

A lot of people are complaining about pill bottles and micros in the forest. Again, this is nothing new. There are just more of them. Not every cache was amazing in 2004. If you want to combat bad hides all I can suggest is hiding the best cache you can. Hide the caches you'd like to find. People tend to remember the spectacular and you'll be rewarded.
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Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Some cachers are under the false impression that they/he/she deserves something back from their/his/her cache hides. Praise, resect, a nice log, eco friendly visits, no native damage, fair cache trades and that your cache will be rehidden where you originally hid it.

If you believe this, you are so naive, and part of the problem. Caching has changed so much in the past 12 years. You, as cache owners, also have to adapt. It is your responsibility to look ahead to see what may occur to the area around your cache, what contents my be left inside and what condition your $$$ container may be left in. If in 3 months you need a machete to get to your cache, don't be shocked when someone uses one. It is you, who hid the cache there, not the seeker who tried to avoid making more damage getting there.

Without recognizing all potential impacts your hide will have today, you are just stuck in some fantasy caching world from '04.

Staying in one place is the same as falling behind.

Keep caching safe and fun and do not mire in your past failures.

Don't what deleterious materials in you cache, then don't use a container that encourages it. Don't want someone to find a shortcut to your cache, then don't hide your cache there.

Smarten up, adapt, or move on. But, stop complaining about something you have no control over.
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Joined: Nov 18, 2010
Posts: 9
Location: New Westminster

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

This is an interesting topic that seems to be producing some passionate responses.

I am a relatively new cacher. Less than 2 years in/ just over 1000 finds. I don't have the "credentials" of some posters on here. I wasn't around in the "good old days" I'm here in the good new days! I have never used a GPSr. I, and all of my immediate caching buddies use IPhones or Androids. In fact, I had never even seen a GPSr until I found one sitting on a lonely bench in Washington last year. I managed to track down the owner and mailed it back to her when I returned home. For which I received immediate (and unasked for) postage payment and a nice thank you card. That is what I think caching should be, and is, all about. Fairness. I don't think that's naive.

My buddies and I hold ourselves to a high standard. If we take a piece of swag we leave 2 of equal value. It's always been the motto, one out, two in. If we find a cache with a problem, I fix it. I carry (or talk one of my friends into carrying;-) a caching fix-it kit on every outing. They know I'm the "cache Mom". If we move a TB, we treat it with respect and place it into a cache where it won't be needlessly exposed. And, we place it promptly, or inform the owner if there will be a delay. (I try to post pictures to go with the TB log to give it's owner a little smile.)
If a cache is in an environmentally sensitive area, I try, to the best of my ability not to be a "Big Foot". I learned that lesson early on from MsChiefGPSy. If I can't manage to do that, I'll leave it for another time when I have someone with me that can get it easier than I can with my mobility issues. Better to lose the smilie than to cause unnecessary damage. We hold any new cache buddies to the same high standards. They know the deal. And they happily follow it. It's often standing room only on our outings;-) I don't think that's naive, and I don't think that's a problem.

As we've gained in experience, we've endeavored to make our own personal cache placements acceptable to the groundspeak guidelines. And, we've made sure not to place more caches than we can reasonably care for in a timely manner. On our more environmentally sensitive caches we put them as 'premium only' to try to cut down on any damage. It does seem to work. Our others are for everyone.

We try, to leave an appropriate comment in the cache logs. If the cache is just a walk up or on a power trail, It will get a nice thank you or an 'easy peasy" . Those caches have a different purpose as they try to get us up and out walking. We understand that as do their owners . But, if a c/o has made an effort to do something creative, or unusuall (at least for their expected expertise level) we make a point of giving a good comment. Not just a G.C.T. We try, not always suceeding, to make any critisicm constructive rather than poison pen. It's how we would want to be treated. If we're not, that's fine. We accept what we can't control.

I think it is accountability that makes a society worth living in and a game worth playing. I don't think that's naive either. If I ever get to the point where I think it is, it will be time for me to 'cache out'.
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Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Qwackers...I like the way you think and how you cache! Thanks for the positive boot to the butt.

Holding oneself to a high standard in anything is progress. For me, expecting others to do the same is a positive and natural response, no matter what one does.
The more cachers this sport has, the more variations we are going to see. 'Everyone plays the game/sport differently' and although some of those 'differences' do not impress me at all, many, many, many do.

Accountability does make Geocaching a game worth playing. If I lower my expectations then it seems that I am 'throwing in the towel' on everyone. It is not that difficult to be accountable nor is it that hard to see that there are those who wouldn't know accountable if it bit them in the butt. Having many more players is going to mean many more challenges....some fun and some that will suck. So what?

Here's one of my favorite quotes by Charles R. Swindoll:
“The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes.”

Charles could have been a Geocacher! lol
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Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 1207
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Thanks to Quackers & Marmi&Tas. I like to see that people hold themselves to high standards when caching. I believe most people know how to act in public and still respect the parks even when they know people aren't looking. I try my best as well. As a matter of fact, I was torn whether to log caches found during a rather large group event not long ago. I didn't find one cache along the power trail. Yet, I wasn't about to make a B line through the forest with 20+ other cachers in order to find the cache. I thought I'd only be adding to the environmental damage as I watched the gang bound and leap through the underbrush. So I stayed on the main trail and watched the find from afar. Someone signed for the entire group. But it made me wonder just how many cachers in the pack does it take before it really isn't caching for the majority of the crowd. I really feel like I should go back by myself and actually find the caches.

I think there are rewards in geocaching. If not, why would we do it? And why would we be so passionate about it? For some, it's the sheer amount of caches found that brings the reward. For others, like myself, the reward is in the find. Although I enjoy getting out with a group, my favourite memories are finding a well hidden cache with a great cammo all by myself -- especially if I had to go back to the area a few times to find it.

This brings me to another point. I found that time or the number of hides doesn't make anyone a better geocacher. I believe the best geocachers (when it comes to environmental or any standards) are the ones that had a good attitude from the beginning. That attitude stays with them throughout their caching life. In my case it also depended on who I first met when caching and who I started caching with early on. There are people who taught me how to walk through ferns without stomping on them. There are people who watched me as I rehid the cache -- not because they didn't trust me, but because they were part of the team who found the cache and felt they should also take responsibility for its replacement. They could have easily deflected blame if something happened to the cache saying "I wasn't there when it was put back." A good attitude can go a long way and leading through example works wonders. I was very lucky to meet responsible cachers when I first started.

I also believe there are rewards in hiding a cache. I don't expect a great log from everyone nor do I expect favourite points. But since I have a very low delight level I usually squeal in delight when someone posts a nice log on one of my caches. I also like to look at favourite points for the entire area. It helps me hide better caches because it shows what people most enjoy when caching. I'm often surprised what caches get the most favourite points. It confirms that what I think is the best cache and what the general population thinks is a good cache can be different. And with that, I do try to give the geocaching population what they like.

Has geocaching changed. Yes. Perhaps the biggest difference is it is not underground anymore. I did enjoy those days where I felt like I was doing something sneaky. **teehee** I enjoyed those blank stares and the raised eyebrow when trying to explain to friends what my hobby and passion was. But I wouldn't say geocaching has gone downhill. It's just evolved. The geocaching community is much larger now and we've probably fallen behind in early training. In the old days, newbies would hook up with seasoned geocachers for the day. But that has changed too. Perhaps more 101 events are needed.
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Rocky Banks

Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 20
Location: North Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

Following the old adage "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem," I went out and bought some inexpensive pads of paper, a few small pencils and raided my supply of baggies and threw them all into a belly pouch. I am going to take this "emergency cache repair kit" with me on all future caching excursions so I can help keep caches that are in need of help alive.
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Highlander 71

Joined: Apr 17, 2011
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: The Archive stage of a Caching Career Reply with quote

You'll enjoy collecting good karma points as well, Rocky :medal:! I have accumulated a few of my own and I pass them onwards when complete strangers go out of their way to fix one of my caches that's in rough shape (thanks again omasue, cristo9FP, and many, many others).

I have always looked at caching this way: when I find someone's cache, I immediately take on a share of the responsibility for it. The owner put it out there for me to find, and I owe it to them to make sure it's a good as I found it, or better. Yes, I have even made return visits to do maintenance on caches I found months or even years before if I hear there might be a problem. It's like seeing an old friend.

Because we live on the Wet Coast, I'd suggest you might want to add these to your kit: RITR note paper, paper towel and silica gel packets. A dry cache is a happy cache! Very Happy
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