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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Time to clean up or archive disabled caches?
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Time to clean up or archive disabled caches?
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HighMaintenance



Joined: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Recently I have been checking out areas looking for an area to geocache and I see so many disabled caches! Many of these have been temporarily disabled for months! At this time of year I try to bring extra containers, baggies and a towel to help repair caches that need it. However it's frustrating to find a park that shows 8 or 10 caches but only one or two of them functional. It would be awesome if everyone could take that extra time to either repair, replace or archive those caches. Thanks!
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Mr. Wilson and a Mt. Goat



Joined: May 01, 2009
Posts: 481
Location: Nanaimo

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Excellent idea, take advantage of the nice weather! Coonskin Hat

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That guy in shorts.
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SOLONM



Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 125

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

It would be awesome if those folk who have disabled caches attended to them...after all caches are kind of like children, one should take care of them. I think the key is not to place so many caches beyond one's capabilities to care for.
It would also be grand if our reviewers would archive the outstanding disabled caches.......a year is WAY too long for a cache to be left disabled (excuses or not).
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Raygar



Joined: Feb 10, 2007
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

funny i was just looking at some old hides that seem to have been forgotten,
seems like quite a few in my area.
Dont want to be pest by posting a ton of needs maint or archive though
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

"Dont want to be pest by posting a ton of needs maint or archive though".

Raygar, the squeaky wheel gets the grease...or, in this case, a long disabled cache gets archived! Go for it...be a pest! lol

As previously stated, the BCGA promotes Geocaching. Like many other Associations, the BCGA has no mandate or means to police or supervise anything. That job belongs to our founders and they need to get back on the ball by Archiving caches that need Archiving.
A little pressure can sometimes be a good thing...so, be a pest and help get those neglected caches archived by repeatedly pressing the 'needs archiving button!
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

I honestly see this as being a neverending saga in the geocaching sport.

If there is such a demand for non-disabled caches, maybe instead of having a choice of disabling a cache, there is only the choice to 'do maintenance - 1 week' (if not done, automatically archived) or archive the cache

I see this as an issue for groundspeak....
Just my Two Cents

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

A Quick look back: On December 10,2009 I started a topic on these forums called “Disabled Dilema”. There were considerable comments, ideas and suggestions put forward at that time, here is a link to the “Topic”.

I still run the same pocket query every two weeks that I started back in 2009. I selected a set of co-ordinates from approx Langley and did a search in a 50m radius. I load the file in GSAK and remove the Washington State caches, leaving only the ones in the Lower Mainland. The owners with the most disabled caches in 2009 are still the owners with the most disabled caches today, with a few exceptions.

Recently I posted a “needs archiving” log to a cache which had been disabled for 2 years, the owner archived the cache and made the comment that “Some people just have too much time”. I have posted others on caches disabled for close to or more than a year and in almost every case there has been some asinine excuse posted to the cache page.

I don’t want a cache archived because I want the location, I want the cache archived because the owner refuses to take on the responsibility that he agreed to when he ticked the boxes and submitted the cache.

There are not a lot of caches being placed this time of year in BC, it is a great time to review those needing attention and a good time for the reviewers to respond to the “needs archiving” logs of other responsible owners. A few months should be sufficient time to address an issue with a cache. I believe I suggested in the past that if you have caches needing attention and are not dealing with them in a timely manner, then you should not get any new ones approved.

So Raygar post the logs, if no one does, nothing will happen. You too Marmi & Tas.
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

IRLPGUY wrote:


Recently I posted a “needs archiving” log to a cache which had been disabled for 2 years, the owner archived the cache and made the comment that “Some people just have too much time”. I have posted others on caches disabled for close to or more than a year and in almost every case there has been some asinine excuse posted to the cache page.

That is very unfortunate. An option I've often chosen has been to write our local reviewers [mtn-man and now Wizard of Ooze] and explain the situation with the cache and ask them to take action on my behalf. The cache owner will not have cause to make an unkind comment and direct it any specific cacher that way.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

CuddleFish” wrote:
That is very unfortunate. An option I've often chosen has been to write our local reviewers [mtn-man and now Wizard of Ooze] and explain the situation with the cache and ask them to take action on my behalf. The cache owner will not have cause to make an unkind comment and direct it any specific cacher that way.

If the option to post an “archive” note to a cache listing was not intended to be used by other cachers, then it should not exist as an option in the logging menu.

I was not particularly bothered by the comment posted by the cache owner. I think it indicated he was embarrassed at not having attended to the cache. My log was not nasty in any way and since it was my log I think I am entitled to post it here.

”Irlpguy” wrote:
This cache has not been logged as found since November 2008. It would appear the needed information cannot be gathered anymore. Perhaps it should be archived or re-worked. Hate to see this one go but it must be time.

I did not view the cache owners log as “unkind”. I did view at least one subsequent log to the archived cache by someone other than the cache owner, as being completely unnecessary and one that creates and incites a different kind of problem.

There is a real stigma attached to posting these “archive” logs. Why a cache owner becomes so upset with such a post after they have taken no action for many months and in some cases much, much longer, simply amazes me. It is one of the basic guidelines of being a responsible cache owner.

It really is not up to the reviewer to be on top of all the disabled caches in their review area, however if cache owners were to receive a note after 90 days or less, I think there would be far less caches sitting un-attended for long periods of time. This “should “ also reduce the need for monitoring by the reviewers.
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mountainsideman



Joined: Jun 04, 2008
Posts: 60
Location: North Burnaby or Tulameen

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

An excellent topic. I myself have entertained the idea of placing numerous caches all over B.C.. But my main stumbling block has been the maintenance issue, I'm simply to busy to perform maintenance should it be required. The last thing I wish to do is be labelled as a DEAD BEAT CACHE OWNER! There should be some sort of acceptable time limit agreed upon by all. (or those who matter - BCGA?) And after that time the cache is archived. I believe 30 days might be a reasonable time frame to start with.
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savant9



Joined: May 02, 2009
Posts: 198
Location: Langley

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

IRLPGUY wrote:

It really is not up to the reviewer to be on top of all the disabled caches in their review area, however if cache owners were to receive a note after 90 days or less, I think there would be far less caches sitting un-attended for long periods of time. This “should “ also reduce the need for monitoring by the reviewers.

Agreed, the reviewers have a big enough job as it is (with no pay), I believe it is our responsibility to be somewhat self policing. I recently logged a "Needs Archived" on a cache in Aldergrove that has been disabled for over 6 months and likely should not have been there in the first place. There is no need to get into a battle with the CO, so my log just simply states "Flagging as SBA". Ultimately its up to the reviewer how they want to deal with it, but an NA log just hopefully brings it to their attention.

It would be nice if there was an automated system on Groundspeak's end that posted a reminder to the cache page after a predetermined time, that required CO intervention to reset a doomsday timer, else the cache be archived.

_________________
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

”Savant9” wrote:
I recently logged a "Needs Archived" on a cache in Aldergrove that has been disabled for over 6 months and likely should not have been there in the first place.

It is always interesting to note what is overlooked when a FTF is being logged. In spite of all the concerns regarding that cache a few logged it as found and some posted notes or DNF’s. Sadly no-one posted an “archive” log until yours. I cannot understand why the cache was not archived by the reviewer immediately upon being alerted to, and checking on this cache listings issues. I would like to think the reviewer would view these “archive” logs as assisting them in keeping caches maintained and available to log, benefiting everyone in the process.

”Savant9” wrote:
It would be nice if there was an automated system on Groundspeak's end that posted a reminder to the cache page after a predetermined time, that required CO intervention to reset a doomsday timer, else the cache be archived.

I like this idea, as long as it required more than posting some lame excuse to the cache page by the owner. I would suggest the cache be archived and specific intervention by the owner would be needed to un-archive it.

Reviewers seem to deal with this issue in different ways and in different time frames, for whatever reason.
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Not that I am suggesting the same here but . . . When I was in the Ottawa area a year or so ago it seems that cachers are given 2 WEEKS between posting a "temporarily disabled" and the cache being archived if there is no action. I don't think it would take too long to educate cachers in that case. What it would do is make some very nice caches disappear without a chance for redemption. Of course, if maintenance is done, a cache can be easily unarchived by the reviewer as well.

I think it goes to the individual reviewer, their particular workload, and their feeling about how strict they think they need to be. It would add enomously to the workload to be checking every day if maintenance is done. I sure wouldn't want that job. I think in that area there is a local reviewer because they need to be bilingual.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

2 weeks is too quick. I have a cache that has been active, and fine for 5 years, suddenly get muggled 2 times in 3 months, but its a bit hard to get to in the winter, and a 2 hour drive. I go there in summer once or twice. So it will sit disabled till summer. Its not always cut and dry why some caches stayed disabled a long time.

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~~~~ _CanadianBacon_~~~~
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Chewy_06



Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Interesting stuff.

I've noticed some odd stuff going on with disabled (or not disabled) caches being archived by our two reviewers of late. A few caches that Im pretty sure were only disabled for a relatively short period were archived (one case i think it was only a couple of weeks), while ones (there's one near me that's going on two years now) dont get toasted. Another one wasnt disabled, but had a few DNF's in the last month & an unresponsive CO, someone posted a NA & poof, gone - while at teh same time, there's one thats well over a year, the cache pacge clearly says that the cache is gone (but the CO didnt disable or archive), NA's posted on it yet it stays.

I get that the reviewers have a job to do, and I get that there's likely more behind teh scenes we dont or dont want to see. But, from the sideline it looks inconsistent so, as a CO, causes me to question what is or isnt reasonable and how much time I can take to attend to caches. From my perspective, i dont really care what the number is, i'd just like to have it be consistent.

Another idea i've wondered about - since Geocaching is already statistics heavy, and has the infrastructure in place, why can't we have a CO maintenance rating system, where CO's have some numbers on their profiles for total aggregate cache days lost due to disabling along with say 3 month rolling numbers for total days lost and an average days lost per cache. This way, those that are good - get shown to be good (if they care, some will and some wont) and those who are struggling, can see this & (one would hope) would take proactive action to correct. GC could set up automatic email scripts to prod CO's falling above certain marks to address their issues. It also would give the reviewers a benchmark by which to consider whether a potential CO is genuinely capable of taking on ownership of that new hide they've put forward. Potential GC feedback idea maybe?

my nickelk opinion at least.
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jangor



Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 144
Location: Surrey, BC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

_canadianbacon_ wrote:
2 weeks is too quick. .

I agree that 2 weeks is not long enough. We had a couple of caches out of action for several months last year while Surrey was doing work in the area and had the access fenced off but all is well now.

I seem to remember that there used to be a reviewer named PNW Reviewer (or something like that) and they used to review disabled caches and post a reviewers note warning that the cache would be archived in 2 weeks unless the CO took certain actions, enable the cache or post a note with a good and valid explanation for the cache being inactive. When that 2 weeks was gone - poof, cache archived. . This system took care of issues like CB's snow issue, our construction issue and similar problems but weeds out the lazy, non-attentive COs.

It would be nice to see that system back in action.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

_canadianbacon_ wrote:
2 weeks is too quick. I have a cache that has been active, and fine for 5 years, suddenly get muggled 2 times in 3 months, but its a bit hard to get to in the winter, and a 2 hour drive. I go there in summer once or twice. So it will sit disabled till summer. Its not always cut and dry why some caches stayed disabled a long time.

I agree, 2 weeks is not even a reasonable time frame. I would suspect there must have been extenuating circumstances beyond just being disabled if a cache was archived in that period of time.
I don’t think anyone has a problem with a cache being disabled for the reasons CB describes. Clearly stating a “legitimate” reason at the time of disabling would be helpful to the reviewers as well as those who might seek the cache.

It becomes a significant problem to maintain ones caches when they are being “stolen” as fast as you can replace them. One thing for sure muggles do not solve puzzles to go and destroy another owners caches. This is the work of another idiot cacher.

As Chewy_06 suggests, it is hard to understand why some caches which have been disabled for a long period, are not being dealt with, while others are archived swiftly. There appears to be no consistency applied across the board.

Perhaps we should use the “Favorite” button with the option of using a negative number attached to it…A negative 1 for each month disabled or something.

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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

IRLPGUY wrote:

So Raygar post the logs, if no one does, nothing will happen. You too Marmi & Tas.

Yes do post the logs....why bother trying to teach anyone anything?
A constant complaint is this one, yet I have not seen anyone do anything about it and yet again here we are...another post about disabled caches is brought to life and the same people are posting again.

Why post? why not educate is my question?

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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Bestred



Joined: Jul 08, 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Abbotsford, BC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

*hates that there isn't an edit button, saw other posts too late :P*

I am thinking the reason that there are some caches still up you would think shouldn't be is because they have given the reviewer a good enough reason???

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ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN...not Kelly's, he has his own - ask him.
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Chewy_06



Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

I dont think it falls on individual cachers to educate other cachers about this. The responsibilities are clearly laid out in the guidelines that must be agreed to when reporting the hide:

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive the listing.

Mind, you, I think "educate" might actually have a pretty broad definition - cachers filing NA logs on long disabled caches stating things like "this one has been disabled for a long long time, maybe its time to clear it out" - is an educational statement of sorts isnt it?

I know that when i've tried contacting cache owners directly on things that were clear issues, It's more often than not turned out suboptimal. One CO, who shall go nameless unleashed a verbal tirade on me about why i felt it was my responsibility to criticize their hide, what gave me the right to challenge their good judgement and to stop being a poo-hole and mind my own business. Yes, thank you for nothing yourself. Next!

I vaguely recall a discussion with mtn-man about teh issues that prompted me to contact this particular CO & his suggestion was to just send the issues to him & let him deal with it.

Now, thinking about what could be the good reason why some long standing disabled ones dont get archived - absolutely, there could be some really good reasons why the reviewer would leave them as is. I can even begin to think what they could be, but there could definitely be some. Personally, i'd love to know what a <50 find cacher who hasnt logged onto the site in six months, could tell a reviewer to get them to leave a cache that's been disabled for oh, 20 months now, in place.

Anyway, I think that in the long run, unless there's some push to shift the outlook by all cachers on this from the top (groundspeak), that this problem is one that will grow with the game.

I hope it doesnt.
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_canadianbacon_



Joined: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 1154
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Maybe it needs to be automated. If a Needs Maint request is put on, or an archive request and no finds after that or no 'maint performed' it gets disabled automatically, then a few weeks later it gets archived.

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~~~~ _CanadianBacon_~~~~
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katcogo



Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 543
Location: Burnaby

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

I think part of the problem is that many cachers don't know the difference between disbling a cache and archiving it. Perhaps a notice should pop up before a CO's disabled log is accepted pointing out the "temporary" nature of this action and suggesting that another possibility would be archiving.

If you want to place a cache where there has been a disabled cache for a long period of time you should contact the reviewer and ask them to intervene with the CO.
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

”Chewy_06” wrote:

Mind, you, I think "educate" might actually have a pretty broad definition - cachers filing NA logs on long disabled caches stating things like "this one has been disabled for a long long time, maybe its time to clear it out" - is an educational statement of sorts isnt it?

Of course it is educational, but actually might be viewed as being a personal criticism. therefore one could also include a link to the Groundspeak guidelines as part of the education process when posting an “archive” log. Adding a non personal element to your log might reduce the anger bestowed upon you by the cache owner. right!!!


”Chewy_06” wrote:
suboptimal

I like this word, subtle but suggestive, strange but appropriate. A definitive reflection of the type of responses I have had as well.
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Chewy_06



Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Well, i'm argumentless now.

This morning, Mtn-man toasted the cache that was the basis for my discussion on this. LOL
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IRLPGUY



Joined: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Chewy_06 wrote:
Well, i'm argumentless now.

This morning, Mtn-man toasted the cache that was the basis for my discussion on this. LOL

Udahman - keep up the good work.

+ 25
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Raygar



Joined: Feb 10, 2007
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Luckily,I've not had any negative or sub positive responses to my several NA logs. Soapbox
I have had several super standard responses from COs when I've replaced a missing cache, ruined log book or just checked out a local hide that i have previously found and is needing tlc.
I seem to be always passing one while jogging fishing hiking etc Magnet
If you think the learning curve is a problem with geocaching
try reading a BC fishing forum in sockeye season Nut
In both scenarios it is better to pitch in that complain, and lead by example.
The Stainless Steel Rat
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HighMaintenance



Joined: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

I was just having a look at some areas in New Westminster that I haven't been to as I will be travelling through there tomorrow...there are too many disabled caches in the area that have been disabled for months and months! Just a reminder...please either fix the caches or remove the remnants to clear the area! Thanks!
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wizardofooze



Joined: Feb 08, 2011
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

I just noticed this thread tonight for the first time.

Here's a quick rundown of how the system works:

The designated reviewer for an area receives all the Needs Archived (NA) logs as emails. A couple of months ago, that duty for BC was transferred to me as the primary contact for NA logs in BC.

About once a week or so, I go through the recent NA logs -- review the caches, post notes on the pages giving the CO typically 30 days to repair, replace, or reply. Those caches are then bookmarked.

A month or so later, I go back to those bookmarked caches, archive the ones where there has been no response, correspond with the CO if necessary, and continue to watch to make sure owners follow through on their intentions if the maintenance is deferred.

If I have time, I also work through the backlog of NA logs that were posted months (or years) ago but not acted on before I took over the responsibility of this extra work. This is a long list and it may take awhile for me to work through them all. Another NA log on a long disabled cache will bring it back to the top of the pile, so to speak, and it will receive quicker attention, so if there's a cache that really needs to be archived go ahead and post another NA log on it and I'll have a look at it in the near future.

_________________
I'm your friendly local geocache reviewer for BC. If you have questions about placing a geocache, please read the guidelines first! If you still need help, feel free to email me wiz@wizardofooze.com with specific questions or check out my blog and website: www.wizardofooze.com
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HighMaintenance



Joined: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Thanks WIZ! I am really hoping my post will be seen by the cache owners and that they will decide what they want to do with their caches....I totally appreciate your hard work and more importantly your efforts to help us out, cachers and cache owners alike!
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ron49er



Joined: Oct 03, 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Chilliwack, BC

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to clean up or archive disabled caches? Reply with quote

Thanks for your time wizard, and glad to see that you are attempting to deal with this ongoing issue. All said, we too can play our part, work together and promote responsible caching.
Cache on!
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