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Forums —» General Caching —» General —» Electric Installations and Caches
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Electric Installations and Caches
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V-I-cacher



Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Vancouver & Island

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

hi folks,

it's been a while and I'm still not "back in the game" yet,
with no GPSr at hand...

Got a notify that a cache popped up close to home and noticed,
that it is close to an electric mast (if not attached to it)

Now I think to remember that there was a discussion about such hides
(could have been on the LMGA-boards, tho) and some sort of incident
(I think in Europe) that had triggered the discussion.
Also I thought that there was a conclusion to best not to hide any such
caches.

It appears gc.com does not have any specific regulation against it?

Someone else remembers what the hell I'm even talking about? Razz

not trying to ruin anybodys fun... but I thought safety first also applies for our sport...

cache on

V-I-cacher
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marmi_and_tas



Joined: Mar 02, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

Hi VI,

There was a discussion somewhere but I can't find it now.

There also was a plea from a cacher who is also an electrician (can't find it either)

Anyways, the electrician was asking people to NOT place caches on electrically powered items or their casings. There is always a chance of severe electrical shock if the grounding system on the item has failed.

So... if you touch it YOU become the grounding mechanism!!!

A recent example of this is the electrocution of dogs in the Toronto area which stepped on metal covers with power connections to nearby lamposts.

The Toronto inspectors started to check and found that there were a considerable number of covers that had become electrically charged due to corroded wires.

Being from an electrical background myself I think that you have brought up a very important issue.

tas
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QuigleyJones



Joined: Mar 09, 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Raincouver

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

marmi_and_tas wrote:

There also was a plea from a cacher who is also an electrician (can't find it either)
Probably was this guy johnnygeo.com/

_________________
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Cuddlefish



Joined: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

Gulp Shifty That johnnygeo has really made me rethink looking for LPCs.

Just as well. Another cacher and I came up with a different acronym for them recently: ASM. See if you can figure out that that stands for! Shifty
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HwyGuy



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Langley BC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

This has been a topic in many forms over the last couple of years. I looked up the regulations at WorkSafe BC - the old WCB.

It states:

Part 19 Electrical Safety
General Electrical Requirements
19.4 Obstructions on poles
(1) Mailboxes, signs, clotheslines, or other obstructions are prohibited on or close to poles on which workers are required to work.
(2) Tags authorized by the owner which are placed on a pole for identification purposes must be less than 1.7 m (5.5 ft) above grade, on the side of the pole which a climbing worker will face.


Seems pretty clear to me - but I found a cache this weekend that was a bison tube in a hole drilled into a hydro pole. Nothing wrong with that one apparently. I didn't even look at the pole the first 2 times I visited. Should have known.

Even with this there will be cachers who will justify putting caches on poles because some guy onsite said they could. The fact that no one has the authority to override WorkSafe BC regs seems to escape some of us.

The BCGA executive seems incapable of taking a stand on any of this so these caches continue to be put out or left active until the series is completed

And then there are the ones in fungii (they were dead already) or the bridge piers (that isn't part of the bridge) or the old growth stump (cachers will be careful) - oh brother!!! - but I will now go take a valium and calm down.
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boomerangpapa



Joined: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Ashcroft, BC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

HwyGuy wrote:
The BCGA executive seems incapable of taking a stand on any of this so these caches continue to be put out or left active until the series is completed.

The BCGA can take a stand all they want on whatever they want but in the end, they still aren't the authority on geocaching!! They can't police geocaching, have no special powers in regards to geocaching any more then me, you or the next guy!
We ALL have the same powers in this regard. If your not happy with a cache placement in regards to safety or breaking the rules, email the cache owner and if that is not sufficient then contact the reviewer and let your concerns be known!
I am so sick of people blaming the BCGA for not doing enough and complaining as they never step up to the plate and offer their own services if they think they can make a difference. Go through he proper channels if you have issues and stop trying to blame people that have no physical control of the situation. It's so easy to just bitch about things and then sit back. Stop pointing out all the problems and start suggesting some solutions. Cause no good will EVER come of outright bitching with no solutions.
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V-I-cacher



Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Vancouver & Island

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

boomerangpapa wrote:
If your not happy with a cache placement in regards to safety or breaking the rules, email the cache owner and if that is not sufficient then contact the reviewer and let your concerns be known!

that is where I'm not clear: is this sort of placement breaking rules or not?
Apparently it is breaking Worksafe BC regulations; is that grounds enough
to contact a reviewer?
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boomerangpapa



Joined: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Ashcroft, BC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

I would say yes it could be grounds for reporting if you feel the need. In theory its "private property" belonging to BC Hydro and by placing a cache on private property without the owners permission is against the rules. Some guy working on the poles is not the owner of the poles and technically has no authority to make that call.

Now after saying that, I have found a lot of caches on a pole and have never reported any of them BUT they have never been in a hazardous place in regards to anything electrical. A micro in a hole in a pole isn't a huge deal for me to alert anyone. It's still breaking the rules I know but I choose my battles I guess and wait for the caches that will seriously cause harm to someone or something (environment or otherwise).

Just my thought...Hope this helps!
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V-I-cacher



Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Vancouver & Island

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

not really keen on any "battles" at all... (not the time for that either)
...question remains is, should not the reviewer filter these type of hides to start with? (Else there was no need for a reviewer, no?)
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boomerangpapa



Joined: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Ashcroft, BC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

The reviewer might not actually know that a micro was hidden in a hydro pole. Depends on how the cacher words his description but things can be worded without saying that it was in the pole so the reviewer might never know that there would ever be e problem! I have some caches that I have hidden that I know weren't described to the last detail and were still accepted. Maybe this was the case with this cache.
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HwyGuy



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Langley BC

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

I am sorry I didn't make myself clear.

I do not want, need or desire the BCGA to be a police force.

I do want the BCGA to stand up and say that the placing of: say a cache on a pole is wrong (or right ) or that using any sort of fungus as a "container" is wrong (or right) or that placing a micro container in an old stump is wrong (or right) according to the "guidelines".

I have spoken to cache owners and received the excuses in mentioned in my first post. They are not about to change one of their creations just because it might not fall in guidelines they seem to think are for others. I am not wanting to be a cop either - I am not about to start emailing mtnman.

What I continually see is the BCGA putting the onus (rightly so) on the cache owner and walking away with no fixed opinions stated. The reason for a central body is to show leadership. Going with the old jaded line of read Groundspeak docs is a cop out. How are new cachers which we seem so concerned about getting, supposed to learn what is supposedly accepted as correct if the BCGA doesn't stand up and at least say what the BCGA promotes as "good" caching etiquette?

I hear the BCGA executive is in favour of good caching - in my opinion - that fact is not overtly shown.
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geodug



Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

V-I-cacher wrote:

Got a notify that a cache popped up close to home and noticed,
that it is close to an electric mast (if not attached to it)

Now I think to remember that there was a discussion about such hides
(could have been on the LMGA-boards, tho) and some sort of incident
(I think in Europe) that had triggered the discussion.
Also I thought that there was a conclusion to best not to hide any such
caches.

It appears gc.com does not have any specific regulation against it?

Someone else remembers what the hell I'm even talking about? Razz

not trying to ruin anybodys fun... but I thought safety first also applies for our sport...
V-I-cacher

Here is my log on the cache in question

geodug wrote:

I found this cache today and realized that it is the subject of some controversy in the BCGA forums. I have to say that I don't think the safety concerns detailed in various places applies to these particular types of caches. Certainly there are issues with other possible cache placements as far as live electricity is concerned but this is not on of them.

This is a galvanized steel tower carrying high voltage electricity from it's source of generation to communities where the electricity is consumed. There are numerous geocaching hides throughout BC and the US pretty much the same as is placed here. As far as I know, using these towers as cache locations are used throughout the world similar to this.

So, the next question is, is there a danger to the public? Apparently not, as BC Hydro or any other transmission tower owner does not enclose these towers behind fencing nor are there any "Danger" signs posted with respect to these towers. There are no "Private", "Do Not Climb" or "No Trespassing" signs evident either. The live power lines are isolated from the towers by heavy insulators and I would guess that if an insulator failed or power accidentally leaked to the tower structures then there would be safety procedures that would shut down power to the leg concerned very promptly.

So, as far as I am concerned, there is no controversy, carry on as usual... geodug

Just to make myself crystal clear. Live electricity needs to be respected wherever it can cause injury or death to others. It sounds like a paradox but I think high-voltage transmission lines are safe.
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couloir



Joined: Jan 19, 2008
Posts: 152
Location: Kamloops

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

Its easy to criticize the few people who step forward to stand for positions with BCGA. Criticizing is easy; real courage is to step forward and get elected and then stand behind what you say. Walk the walk if you really mean what you say. See you at next year's AGM!
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V-I-cacher



Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Vancouver & Island

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

geodug wrote:

This is a galvanized steel tower carrying high voltage electricity from it's source of generation to communities where the electricity is consumed. There are numerous geocaching hides throughout BC and the US pretty much the same as is placed here. As far as I know, using these towers as cache locations are used throughout the world similar to this.

So, the next question is, is there a danger to the public? Apparently not, as BC Hydro or any other transmission tower owner does not enclose these towers behind fencing nor are there any "Danger" signs posted with respect to these towers. There are no "Private", "Do Not Climb" or "No Trespassing" signs evident either. The live power lines are isolated from the towers by heavy insulators and I would guess that if an insulator failed or power accidentally leaked to the tower structures then there would be safety procedures that would shut down power to the leg concerned very promptly.

So, as far as I am concerned, there is no controversy, carry on as usual... geodug

Well, let me quickly quote from Johnnygeo's page:
"Power transmission tower legs are private property and are not meant for anyone to hide geocaches on them."

The picture on his webpage shows a tower very much like the one in question without any of the signs you would wish to see on them either.
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MrGigabyte



Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Installations and Caches Reply with quote

If you have permission to hide the cache, then the responsibility is that of the utility/owner should any problems occur. This is no different than any other cache placement.

When you submit you cache for review at geocaching.com, you agree to the requirements that you have all necessary permissions to hide your cache, in its current position, wherever that may be. That is ALL the reviewers at geocaching.com need to see. You have sought and obtained all necessary permissions, and have confirmed so by your validation on the submission page.

If you do not have permission to hide your cache, then you should seek the required permission, or the cache should be removed and the listing archived. Any caches you own where you think any question may arise about permission, then you should state that you have permission to hide your cache from the facility/utility/municipality/etc. right on the cache page. This will aid any stakeholders in rectifying any violation/trespass etc. questions should they arise.

This applies from BC Hydro transmission towers all the way down to Walmart parking lot lampposts.

If you do not have permission, then your cache is in contravention of the geocaching.com listing requirements and may potentially be illegal, not to mention inviting cachers to trespass.
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