Session Start: Thu Apr 06 20:43:12 2006 Session Ident: #BCGA-Chat [20:43] * Now talking in #BCGA-Chat [20:43] * Topic is 'British Columbia - Parks Canada Geocaching Policy Development' [20:43] * Set by moderator on Thu Apr 06 20:42:44 [20:59] * DocMagoo has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:02] * ickster has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:02] Hi Ickster [21:02] Salut, mes confreres [21:02] * tlg has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:02] Hi TLG [21:02] hi all [21:02] hi tlg [21:03] Haven't started anything yet [21:03] I see. [21:03] Might as well get going. People can join in as they come on line. [21:04] Anybody want to discuss any pressing questions that have been burning on their minds since the last chat? [21:04] I haven't received any new information from PC since the last chat. [21:05] we you able to collate the ideas presented at the last chat? [21:05] we = were [21:05] Did anybody review the transcript of the last session and have questions from that? [21:06] Has there been any discussions with other provincial caching groups that will also be at the table with PC [21:06] and yes, i did review the last transcript [21:07] I will be taking the transcripts from the all the chats and looking for common themes among them. [21:07] I am in contact with the other members of the work group. They too are holding online chats and collecting the information from their areas. [21:07] I'm a bit out of the info loop, but what are the specifics for the meeting (when, where?). I read that it might be Gatineau...? [21:08] It is in Gatineau on Friday, May 4 and Saturday May 5 [21:08] Gatineau? Got room in your luggage for me? [21:08] Sure...hop on in [21:08] * msthebrain_and_Pinky has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:09] it's pinky and the brain. Narf. [21:09] I will be leaving on Thursday to catch a flight so I can be there for Friday morning [21:09] Hi all [21:09] hello [21:09] We just got started. [21:10] What do you cachers see as being the biggest hurdle to get over with these talks? [21:10] Has anyone reviewed PC mission statement to see how caching fits into their plan? [21:10] What do you want to see accomplished? [21:10] anyhow, I must dash. Keep up the good work guys; I look forward to reading tonights transcripts. [21:10] I have been collecting as much research as I can. I have it somewhere. [21:11] * tlg has left #BCGA-Chat [21:12] Can't put my finger on it at this moment but I have it printed out somewhere. [21:12] From my perspective, I would prefer to see some non-restrictive rules/guidlines in place. In order to sell that, we may need to look at how we rate compered to other user groups in regard to their impact [21:12] hurdles....might be PC unwillingness to allow physical caches in parks. That is that largest sticking point IMHO [21:12] We will definately try to put caching into a context that meets their needs [21:13] note that I mentioned "might"...as I can't speak on their behalf [21:13] I think most people agree that having only virts in parks is not what we want. Trying to convice PC of that could be tricky. [21:13] Definitely should point out that the biggest threat to the parks is the "non-regulated" users. ie teenage party groups and their left over empties, and those that would dump garbage [21:14] Agreed. Making comparisons to other user groups is a great idea. I don't personally believe that caching is the most destructive activity happening in parks right now. [21:15] It would be nice to see if there is any concrete evidence of caching being harmful. If there isn't anything substantial, and rules are being drafted on probabilities, then the rules should be kept minamilistic with the intent to review the impact of cahing under those rules after a certain time frame: perhaps a year trial period. [21:15] You can make rules for almost anything, but there will always be people who break them. There are rules in place about littering and it stops the majority of people from doing it...but not all. [21:16] * DocMagoo has quit IRC (Quit: DocMagoo) [21:16] * DocMagoo has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:16] If afteryear (and they could do a check on the impact in the vicinity of caches towards the end of summer, after the heaviest use. [21:17] I don't know that pointing out that geocaching is much less distructive to the environment than some other bad user groups is productive. I'd like to see us focus on the positive aspects of caching and the benefits that caching in parks might bring. [21:17] I agree that keeping the rules to a minmum is better. I would prefer to see quidlines placed and not restrictive rules. I would like to see it written in a positive manner where the statements are proactive, not restrictive. [21:18] Yes WCE, I was just making the statement here. I wouldn't use that line of reasoning with PC [21:18] thanks ;) [21:18] There was a check being done on the VIGPS site at one timethat looked at the number ovistiors to caches in a given period. It was suprising how light the trafic really was. Approx 10 visitors/yr for large park caches. [21:19] And I agree with CB 21:17 post ;-) [21:19] There was a quick project put together where the # of visits/cache/day in some BC Parks cache locations was done. It was pretty minimal when it was looked at that way. [21:19] You beat me to it. [21:20] Agree with all - non-confrotational and keep it positive. Just musing aloud back there. [21:20] We don't have a great number of caches that were in BC that were in PC areas. I know there were some in the Broken Island Group and their visits were very little. [21:22] It's tough to get a feel where PC is coming from. Their reaction to caching was knee-jerk so it's hard to say where they got their info and why they approached it in the way they did. [21:22] Most PC parks are huge. Perhaps something along the lines of "caches to be place a mnimum of 1 mile from any campground or parking spot. That would certainly seve to keep numbers of visiors down! Just throwing out ideas here! [21:22] Thats what this all about. [21:23] That's why I made the above statement. I don't know if that is what PC has a problem with or not. [21:23] * msthebrain_and_Pinky has quit IRC (Quit: msthebrain_and_Pinky) [21:23] I still think something that might come up is the life expectancy of a cache. [21:24] How long does a cache stay where it is? What is an acceptable time frame to have a cache hidden. I have posed this question several times and received different opinions. [21:24] One of the first things to find out at the meeting is their understanding of caching. If they think that caching consists of getting to within 100 mertres of the site, then doing a strip grid search over 1000m2, then I can see the concern. If they realize its upwards to 10 people visiting a specific point ans looking, respectfully, in a 40m2 area, all within a 1000acre park, well, that will certai [21:24] This is still a sticking point with BC parks too. [21:25] The first thing we are doing when we get to Gatineau is we are taking the group out into the field caching. [21:25] in accentuating the positive in caching.....do you anticipate that there will be time during the sessions for the various reps to present things like educational value to caching, CITO, bringing visitorship up, etc? [21:25] How long does a cache stay there? Less time than the empties I find. I've found old stubbies out there! [21:26] We want to make sure they know what this activity is all about before we start talking about how to deal with it. It is already scheduled for the first morning. [21:26] Can I go? [21:26] I think that the timeframe of a caches life has to take into consideration the traffic that a cache receives. We've got some BC Parks caches that only get 1 or 2 visitors a year. If the owner is still active, what's wrong with having that cache there for years? If the rare cache is heavily visited, then the lifespan should be much shorter IMHO. [21:26] I think there will be opportunities to present all the positives of caching such as CITO, etc. [21:27] Sorry ickster....they are keeping the working group to one rep/area. [21:28] Great regarding the positives. Are the slated caches that they will be visiting already selected? [21:28] IF PC is educated on Caching, and perhaps designates a "PC Caching Rep", then that rep could easily become familiar with the caching site and forums. It's quite easy to see who is active in an area and contact them. [21:28] WCE, good points. That's what makes it tough to write into policy. It has to be taken on a cache to cache basis. One blanket statement doesn't really do it justice. [21:30] They are looking for local caches in the area to visit which aren't to far from where we are meeting, but aren't urban lamp post caches either. [21:31] The Rep from Ontario is familiar with the area and is scouting some locations that will work for a group of people to get to but still represents an average cache. [21:31] We aren't going to place a temp. cache and then go find it. We want the real thing. [21:33] It really has to be emphasised too that caching in groups is rare and completely different from the majority of caching which is a single or very small group of people. You don't want them to see 20 sets of footprints hitting a cache in one day and gasping at the impact that'll have. [21:33] Very true...good point [21:34] If each province (or area, or park, if you want to go that far down) had a designated PC rep, then all they have to do is open a ching account and watchlist those cahes that are in their juristiction. Then on a periodic basis, they just have to do a quick look at when it was last found. [21:35] * calgene has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:35] Good idea. I'm curious to see how involved PC wants to be with watching caches in the parks or if they want the listing services and cachers to take on that responsibility. [21:36] Obvviously cachers will always look our for what is right and wrong, but I'm wondering if PC will set up monitoring of cache locations. If they do, that suggestion could be very valuable. [21:36] If there are any issues, they can easily contact the owner to remove it, move, or check it. If the owner is unresponsive or unavailable, then it's easy to contact another local cacher or the local caching organization to deal with it. That way its a combined stewardship. I would recommend this approach be trailed for a year or two, then reviewed to see it's success/failure. [21:37] our = out [21:38] Am I correct in assuming each province has it's own caching association now? [21:38] Not all do yet. Some have local groups such as Calgary Cachers but they aren't provincial associations. [21:39] That could be problematic [21:39] Most provinces have some form of an organized group though. [21:40] Hi ,just wondering if you are going to have another newbie course like the one at munday park last year on aug.20th? [21:40] I was thinking that if PC didn't want to monitor the caches themselves do to perceived manpower issues (athough it would probably only require 1 manhour/month), then the provincial caching association could take on monitoring the caches, roviding the PC caching rep for the province with a quick report on a monthly or quarterly basis [21:40] The policy can't be left to the associations though. They may come and go as time moves on. It will be up to cachers and the listing services when approving to monitor cache placement and meeting guidelines. [21:42] I think PC is looking to put a policy in place that can stand on its own. Relying on a dozen different online associations or groups could become problematic. [21:42] I woild recommend putting together a quick tutorial on how to set up an account and monitor caches in an area. Provide this training/info to the PC guys and also look at providing them an assessemnt of how long, in manhours per month, it would take a PC rep to monitor caches in a province and/or park [21:43] Hi Calgene, not sure when the next newbie night might be but there is an event happening this weekend. [21:43] calgene, thanks for joining us tonight. This discussion is about the Parks Canada policy development on geocaching. The BCGA doesn't currently have any intro events scheduled. [21:43] ok thankyou [21:44] Good idea Ickster. It would be very simple to monitor an area like that. I will make note of that. [21:44] Perhaps the PC rangers could check on the cahes for us on a monthly basis. That way they get around to all parts of the park, and we get maintained caches. - this is a joke :-) [21:45] LOL...I will definatley pass that one along......;) [21:45] must be the potluck in mallardville, this sat. [21:45] Yes, Calgene [21:46] How do you cachers feel about PC wanting the caches to contain educational information (on the cache page) or requiring that it contains educational info? [21:48] It will very important to make sure that they relize it's not manpower intensive. That's equated with salaries, and therefore dollar costs. In fact, monitoring of the caches needed be done by "in the park" rangers at all. It can be done by a PC beaurocrat [21:48] BTW - My spelling sucks! [21:49] As for the educational info - great idea! I alos like Landsharkz "Park Friendly" label and info [21:49] I have that idea from Landsharkz already. I think it was a great idea as well. [21:49] I don't have a problem with educational requirements [21:50] personally, I know that many cachers do this with their cache pages, but I don't think that it should be a requirement. I don't always strap on the hikers thinking about what I'm going to learn educationally. If the educ. info "fits naturally" then sure, but more often I'm enjoying being outdoors. [21:50] I can't even spell edumucational! [21:50] * Icenrye has joined #BCGA-Chat [21:50] hi icenrye [21:50] Hi guys [21:50] Welcome Icenrye! [21:50] Once again, who determines what is educational too. [21:50] Hey IcenRye [21:51] hi [21:51] It would be a samll bargaining point to keep in your pocket. Something to put out if the talks ned nudging [21:51] We'll call it the "secret weapon" ....kidding [21:51] to me it sounds like it's using the listing service to provide cheap advertising for PC [21:52] Sorry I'm late. What's the topic tonight with PC? [21:52] The educational component of a PC cache could just be "look at this 500 year old tree" with a bit of history about trees in the area, or pointing out some geological point of interest, or even a great view... It doesn't have to be a thesis [21:53] If cheap advertising is what it takes to open up that much irresitable caching spots, then so be it. It costs us nothing but a quick "cut and paste" [21:53] Yup....having caching in their parks is a free service for them. It increases park use, increases park revenue (even if only a small amount) and provides a source of advertising (free) [21:54] I'm not saying that I'm opposed to it, but perhaps this is something to "use" in accentuating the positive. [21:54] Icenrye, we have hit a couple of topics: Life expectancy of a cache in PC, Educational information on cache listings and monitoring the cache locations. [21:54] Sorry Icenrye... Chilli recently asked about our thoughts on PC caches requiring some educational component to them [21:54] Sounds like what happens now with most virtuals. A simple explanation of what makes this spot so special. [21:54] Not sure if it will even come up. But good to know how some people feel about it if it does come up. [21:55] Hey IcenRye, do you have any questions or comments....floor is open. [21:56] Most of the caches I've found in Jasper have some historical signafigance. [21:56] which is educational too ;) [21:56] Are there still caches active in Jasper or have they all been taken offline? [21:56] historical would definatley be educational [21:56] As for the life expectancy issue: I think that ties into the monitoring issue. Another thing to consider would be caching density. I mention this as it could be tied to life expectancy. If there are only 2 caches/acre (for example), what is the real impact of a 2 small containers sitting there hidden for 2 or more years? [21:57] one of my Favs was "Tunnel Cache" by Ben's Mom. It took you to an old train crossing. I've driven past the spot hundreds of times and never noticed it. [21:57] All jasper caches are gone [21:57] That's what I thought. Too bad :( [21:58] Picked up by a PC dude. [21:58] ...at the same time, caches that teach youngsters how to use a compass is educational as well...just it doesn't sell the "feature" within the park. Something like GCG1AY (Irene Pierce Trail), is educational, but puts the emphasis on navigation. [21:58] I hope he got all the empties and old machinery while he was there! [21:58] Interesting that Banff still has all of its and some new ones have been listed. [21:58] ickster, I think the impact can only be measured based on where those 2 caches were placed. What was the environmental sensitivity of the surrounding area? It's very difficult to have a blanket policy that works for a deep rainforst as well as a rocky mountain peak. [21:58] so diffent strokes for different folks.... [22:00] IPT - Episode 9 Cool cache. had to work backwards to find when the trail was washed out. [22:00] oh, we just grew feathers and webbed feet ;-) [22:01] I guess so. You guys are use to the water. Up here, we just wait for it to freeze! [22:02] What it really comes back to is impact: I have yet to see any demonstrated significant impact. By significant I mean truly significant. One broken sappling underfoot is "impact". Is that significant in a 100000 acre park? No. So perhaps before any policy is drawn up, an impact assessmemnt may need to be made. [22:02] Before a "devils advocate" mentions that each cache is different, and therefore a differnent assesemnt would need to be made, let me affoer this: [22:03] If a PC caching rep were to monitor caches as per a previos post, then that same PC caching rep could also be a "reviewer for those caches within the park, provided that rep had guidlines to work with [22:05] g'nite all [22:05] That empowers each park/area rep, giving them more input, yet still allowing for caches to get out there. Infact, commencing a good relationship with local park reps could open doors. [22:05] Bon nuit [22:05] * DocMagoo has quit IRC (Quit: DocMagoo) [22:05] Sounds good to me. [22:05] As Chilli said before, I think we need to know how much PC wants to be involved in the caching process first. Monitoring and reviewing take time which costs them $$$. Are they willing to invest a little in this or do they want a policy that the caching community can self-monitor with no additional work/cost for them. [22:06] goodnight [22:06] anyways. I'll see everyone at teh Blitz party. I have DVD's! [22:06] oops, didn't notice the time.... guess it's time to call it a night [22:06] nighty-night calegne [22:06] L8R - Cache On! [22:06] It is one of those double edged swords. Is that handing too much power over to PC? (This isn't necessarily my opinion, I'm just putting it out there for discussion) [22:06] * calgene has quit IRC (Quit: calgene) [22:07] Bye guys.... [22:07] * Icenrye has quit IRC (Quit: Icenrye) [22:07] g'night [22:07] Ru sticking around CB, or should we pick this up later? [22:07] Thanks for all that came out. Some good ideas and conversation here. [22:08] Lets put a pin in it until next time. If you come up with other ideas or want to put some more down on paper in the next few days, email me. [22:08] Wilco. TTFN [22:09] Love the input. Thanks for coming out tonight. [22:09] Night [22:09] * wce has quit IRC (Quit: wce) [22:10] * ickster has quit IRC (Quit: ickster) [22:10] * Chillibusher has quit IRC (Quit: Chillibusher) [22:10] * Disconnected